[Zope-dev] State of ZPatterns
Itai wrote: > My understanding was, though, > that TransWarp will replace ZPatterns as the best tool for object > model based development, which means that the idea of developing > ZPatterns code with a view for long term future reuse suddenly isn't > that attractive. My inclination exactly. I would feel so much better if all these geniuses would just jump "straight to Go". It seems, though, that they have to work through this "unproductive" prototyping stage in order to get there. Of course, I can't complain, since just watching the breakneck evolution of Python, Zope, ZPatterns, and all the amazing goodies that show up here and at Zope.org leave my head spinning. If I recall, the original RIPP slide presentation stated pretty clearly that the toolkit that came to be called ZPatterns was really just the groundwork needed to achieve a much larger goal. So, TransWarp is that much closer to reality, and it took ZPatterns to make that happen. The stamina alone is mind boggling, let alone the fact that useful stuff, _very_useful_stuff_, was generated along the way. also: > I expect the ZPatterns-based e-commerce app > I'm building today to make the e-commerce app I build in 12 months a > lot easier to build. So any changes in the basic tools I use bother > me. Me too. My preference is to have only the best solutions right from the start, and to only have to learn things once. Problem is, after 14 years doing this stuff, none of it has had the simple courtesy to just stand still! The good news is, for the most part, the trend is in the general direction of improvement. Again, how can I complain? I don't pretend to fully "get" any of the stuff these guys, nor the DC crew, not to mention the PythonLabs team, and all the astounding folks on the lists are cooking up for the rest of us. All that I can say for certain is that based on past history, it will be even more amazing than the stuff that has me totally dazzled already. One thing that has definitely grabbed my attention about TransWarp is the goal of not only making Zope development more flexible and powerful, but to bring the same facility to "Extra-Zope" development. We all hang out here because of the incomparable degree to which Zope has empowered Web development. But Jim Fulton himself has said how tickled he is that folks are starting to use ZODB independent of Zope. Zope is, after all, an amalgam of several Python modules, any one of which can be pulled into a non-Zope application. Right now, at this point in time, the Web is absolutely critical, and anything that helps us deal with the crude state of the Web (e.g. browser hell) is a life-saver. So, Zope's greatest strength is its Web-centricity, but it can also be it's Achille's heal, once the Web reaches maturity, and technology moves on. Something like TransWarp can assure that all the goodies that we build for Zope can continue to live on and remain viable, long after "The Web" is a quaint artifact, a footnote in the primitive history of an ubiquitous Global Communication System. Thanks Phil, Ty, Jim, Brian, Paul, Shane, Tres, Michel, Amos, Guido, Tim, Ken, and way too many more to mention! Jerry S. ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] State of ZPatterns
Phillip J. Eby wrote: >At 10:16 AM 3/11/01 +1100, Itai Tavor wrote: >> >>I'm wondering where TransWarp leaves ZPatterns users. Until a couple >>of weeks ago ZPatterns was the best thing to happen in the Zope world >>since, well, Zope. Now it's described as a 'hack', > >Those things aren't mutually exclusive, you know. :) I realize that... I just got the impression that your own view of the value of ZPatterns suddenly took a nose dive. Guess I was wrong, and I'm happy to know that. > >demoted into >>'maintenance only' mode, and superceded by something that is >>described as being as much better than ZPatterns as ZPatterns was >>better than standard Zope development. > >It hasn't been superceded. TransWarp has several layers of functionality >planned; only one of those layers has been released to date. (By the way, >I also don't recall ever saying even that TransWarp was "better" than >ZPatterns, let alone that it was some giant leap forward. I did say that >it expanded further on the model which was the basis for ZPatterns, however.) Sorry for putting words in your mouth. My understanding was, though, that TransWarp will replace ZPatterns as the best tool for object model based development, which means that the idea of developing ZPatterns code with a view for long term future reuse suddenly isn't that attractive. > >As for "maintenance only", ZPatterns hasn't had any changes in months, >except for patches provided by its users. That's largely because it hasn't >needed any. There's not much you can *add* to ZPatterns, without a major >upheaval. I figure, let the major upheaval be directed at making something >completely different, rather than have major reworking to make something >only marginally better. I fully agree. I just didn't expect something with a 0.4.3b2 version number to remain unchanged. Also, I remember you mentioning that you're working on an SQL DataSkin. If that was really a possibility in the past, and it won't happen, then it's a major loss. Documentation/examples is another area that still needs to be improved (although the community can be considered to be responsible for that as much as yourself). > >So what do we do now? Wrap up current ZPatterns work, writing it off >>as a loss for future reuse? Or can we count on 'maintenance only' >>being sufficient to support continued reused of ZPatterns efforts >>long enough to justify the original development effort? > >Someone asked a similar question of me at the conference. I told them that >if I needed to develop a web-based application today, I would use ZPatterns >with Zope. It works, it's stable, it gets the job done. If you use it for production sites, that's good enough for me :-) > >Also, recall that the RIPP model concept was introduced to the Zope >community last January, and it was many months before ZPatterns' first >release, then many more before it was stable enough to be ready for >production use. Expect the same to be true of TransWarp. The tools >released so far are rock solid, but there isn't anywhere near enough there >to compete with ZPatterns yet. This is ok as long as you're choosing a tool per project. But I'm hate repeating work, and I expect the ZPatterns-based e-commerce app I'm building today to make the e-commerce app I build in 12 months a lot easier to build. So any changes in the basic tools I use bother me. Anyway, you did well calming my concerns. Thanks for that, and for releasing ZPatterns in the first place. -- -- Itai Tavor -- "Je sautille, donc je suis."-- [EMAIL PROTECTED]-- - Kermit the Frog -- -- -- -- "If you haven't got your health, you haven't got anything" -- ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] State of ZPatterns
At 10:16 AM 3/11/01 +1100, Itai Tavor wrote: > >I'm wondering where TransWarp leaves ZPatterns users. Until a couple >of weeks ago ZPatterns was the best thing to happen in the Zope world >since, well, Zope. Now it's described as a 'hack', Those things aren't mutually exclusive, you know. :) >demoted into >'maintenance only' mode, and superceded by something that is >described as being as much better than ZPatterns as ZPatterns was >better than standard Zope development. It hasn't been superceded. TransWarp has several layers of functionality planned; only one of those layers has been released to date. (By the way, I also don't recall ever saying even that TransWarp was "better" than ZPatterns, let alone that it was some giant leap forward. I did say that it expanded further on the model which was the basis for ZPatterns, however.) As for "maintenance only", ZPatterns hasn't had any changes in months, except for patches provided by its users. That's largely because it hasn't needed any. There's not much you can *add* to ZPatterns, without a major upheaval. I figure, let the major upheaval be directed at making something completely different, rather than have major reworking to make something only marginally better. >So what do we do now? Wrap up current ZPatterns work, writing it off >as a loss for future reuse? Or can we count on 'maintenance only' >being sufficient to support continued reused of ZPatterns efforts >long enough to justify the original development effort? Someone asked a similar question of me at the conference. I told them that if I needed to develop a web-based application today, I would use ZPatterns with Zope. It works, it's stable, it gets the job done. Also, recall that the RIPP model concept was introduced to the Zope community last January, and it was many months before ZPatterns' first release, then many more before it was stable enough to be ready for production use. Expect the same to be true of TransWarp. The tools released so far are rock solid, but there isn't anywhere near enough there to compete with ZPatterns yet. ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
[Zope-dev] State of ZPatterns
Hi, I'm wondering where TransWarp leaves ZPatterns users. Until a couple of weeks ago ZPatterns was the best thing to happen in the Zope world since, well, Zope. Now it's described as a 'hack', demoted into 'maintenance only' mode, and superceded by something that is described as being as much better than ZPatterns as ZPatterns was better than standard Zope development. So what do we do now? Wrap up current ZPatterns work, writing it off as a loss for future reuse? Or can we count on 'maintenance only' being sufficient to support continued reused of ZPatterns efforts long enough to justify the original development effort? Do any other ZPatterns users share these concerns? Itai -- -- Itai Tavor -- "Je sautille, donc je suis."-- [EMAIL PROTECTED]-- - Kermit the Frog -- -- -- -- "If you haven't got your health, you haven't got anything" -- ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
