Re: [Zope-dev] ZTK TTW Content Types Project Wiki
Hey guys, first post on this list since circa 2005… Hope you're doing well. It's almost funny to see that there's still some debate on that subject. Like most things in our industry it is kind of cyclic : 10 years ago TTW was probably the new cool thing, then it became evil for lots of good reasons. Two cents on that topic. 1. nobody speaks exactly of the same thing while debating about TTW. This is a bit true in particular in the discussion fragment cited below. Besides, should I recall that conditions tend to be different in time, space, and application ? 2. Here's my attempt to obtain a correct statement taking 1. into account: """Given the current application management and hosting trends that are all over the place in my country for the kind of industrial installations I happen to maintain (mostly Zope 2 for now), I see that some kind of really well controlled TTW customization is a need, more than ever.""" Too bad if that's advocating TTW, heh. Oops, that made a bigger second cent than I'd imagine. Anyway, the problem is much more general than just TTW, and we could speak of the nightmares of TTMail, TTUsbkey and TTBlindSysAdmin. I just hope we can have a really well done DVCS integration at some point to solve the big problem of tracking configuration, live emergency patching. Ever heard of that ? Eventually, I would be happy to code something like that, but since I'd like to use it, It'd be in a context that not many people care about (Zope 2.9 only, to begin with) Cheers, On 09/08/2010 01:32 PM, Kevin Gill wrote: >> > >> > The big, big problem with any kind of TTW development is that it usually >> > breaks down badly when you move your code to a production server and then >> > need to continue development in a separate environment. Code and >> > configuration stored in a database is difficult to deploy and merge when >> > the same database holds live data and content. The same problem exists >> > where >> > more than one developer needs to collaborate. Without source files and >> > source control, it's impossible to give each developer their own sandbox. >> > > These are all valid problems. I don't want to discuss them, because I am > not advocating TTW. But I will point out that I worked around them all > when doing TTW, e.g. APE allowed me to keep Code in SVN, multiple Zope > instances allowed me to develop different branches, my data was in > Postgres anyway etc. -- Georges Racinet, http://www.racinet.fr Zope/CPS expertise, assistance & development GPG: 0x4862FFF7 identi.ca & twitter: gracinet signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] ZTK TTW Content Types Project Wiki
>> >> >> Don't be too harsh on Grok/Dexterity. Dexterity has worked out how not >> to >> repeat the definitions in interfaces, forms and content objects. It also >> produces an application with suprisingly little redundant code. I urge >> you >> to try it out. The benefits are of course quick turn around, version >> control, testability and the debugger. >> >> Also note that (the Plone integration for) Dexterity allows you to >> create > types entirely through-the-web. This can then be meaningfully transitioned > to filesystem development without forcing you to start from scratch. Is there a tool to do the "meaningful transition". I like the ability to design the content type schema TTW, but I haven't got a button to export it (b2 + plone 3.3.5). I found this... """The type definition can just be exported via portal_setup by exporting the types tool. We want some new UI for this. The schema will be in there, in escaped xml. You can also put this in a separate xml file, or define a zope 3 schema--use plone.directives.form for this.""" Also, is there a roadmap / vision. I used Dexterity earlier this year and loved it. But that was a standalone way to get grok to build a form with complex functionality. The TTW tool potentially gives the ability to customise classes built using dexterity. It is really cool. > > The big, big problem with any kind of TTW development is that it usually > breaks down badly when you move your code to a production server and then > need to continue development in a separate environment. Code and > configuration stored in a database is difficult to deploy and merge when > the > same database holds live data and content. The same problem exists where > more than one developer needs to collaborate. Without source files and > source control, it's impossible to give each developer their own sandbox. > These are all valid problems. I don't want to discuss them, because I am not advocating TTW. But I will point out that I worked around them all when doing TTW, e.g. APE allowed me to keep Code in SVN, multiple Zope instances allowed me to develop different branches, my data was in Postgres anyway etc. > Martin > > > ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] ZTK TTW Content Types Project Wiki
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Martin Aspeli wrote: > > Don't be too harsh on Grok/Dexterity. Dexterity has worked out how > not to > repeat the definitions in interfaces, forms and content objects. It also > produces an application with suprisingly little redundant code. I > urge you > to try it out. The benefits are of course quick turn around, version > control, testability and the debugger. > > Also note that (the Plone integration for) Dexterity allows you to > create types entirely through-the-web. This can then be meaningfully > transitioned to filesystem development without forcing you to start from > scratch. > > The big, big problem with any kind of TTW development is that it usually > breaks down badly when you move your code to a production server and > then need to continue development in a separate environment. Code and > configuration stored in a database is difficult to deploy and merge when > the same database holds live data and content. The same problem exists > where more than one developer needs to collaborate. Without source files > and source control, it's impossible to give each developer their own > sandbox. We have this discussion in slighty various forms with Christopher every other year...I think it does not help much repeating the same arguments each year again...kind of hopeless if you ask me *shrug* - -aj -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (Darwin) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iQGUBAEBAgAGBQJMh26XAAoJEADcfz7u4AZjXvsLwJlCEmfSiTyi9rBxztfUv2dK qClILApNqVZSMAYDYgulTqrVpmujrGeMphCfbKJp/p8AOXogh+1e2T5LJCV+rhm1 NMGfVKxNgp2M28MOWKuYICrTgaQXOzjas/tN/1Lv2nxt1q/SPs1kjue6rcdMbi7i fOfk/oTTVU5WFTHdZCHlVJdydTMNxbtFuf/wZ2wzFxNz5Rkqxj9YdZB7eBoYlONx Q1htycNDAgejQJ0uvvljnw8K3J1iixEpQI9OShmH4nstxQMj09DPRb2PKIaqRXGf WZiiCSIgteWPMWnh8slYYaEXtJDS3zTKQX45o7xYWRPd5pdHpbTyhHuVNhpn+gpV kbjOaLGBzYv9o1Modwgtb6uH1ysX2cjZEQqESjt/NL8Kzjk+CCeAHtcxlyD0Sqa2 nD7cZg+OivYgoOKIECuVleDpAY+XQwFp4fTLAovziZRbAEsSyhN2qvetGIPG8QcM dqock3W78YE98ZuTqOyNekzWO573GZc= =iKmj -END PGP SIGNATURE- <>___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] ZTK TTW Content Types Project Wiki
> > > Don't be too harsh on Grok/Dexterity. Dexterity has worked out how not to > repeat the definitions in interfaces, forms and content objects. It also > produces an application with suprisingly little redundant code. I urge you > to try it out. The benefits are of course quick turn around, version > control, testability and the debugger. > > Also note that (the Plone integration for) Dexterity allows you to create types entirely through-the-web. This can then be meaningfully transitioned to filesystem development without forcing you to start from scratch. The big, big problem with any kind of TTW development is that it usually breaks down badly when you move your code to a production server and then need to continue development in a separate environment. Code and configuration stored in a database is difficult to deploy and merge when the same database holds live data and content. The same problem exists where more than one developer needs to collaborate. Without source files and source control, it's impossible to give each developer their own sandbox. Martin ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] ZTK TTW Content Types Project Wiki
> So I am starting a project to build content types through the web using > the ZTK. > > Here is the url. > > http://specialtyjobmarkets.com/Wikis/LozinskiClasses/FrontPage > Hi Christopher, I understand where you are. Four years ago, I made the transition from Zope2 to Zope3. It was about 12 months before the new technologies felt comfortable. In particular, my biggest irritation was Zope3 heads who had never used ZClasses and TTW development bad mouthing it. Recently, I have gravitated to Plone. There are a number of tools in Plone that demonstrate an interest in RAD in general and TTW as a RAD mechanism where appropriate. PloneFormGen has been improved recently. It is great for creating forms for creating content objects. ArchGenXML can generate the structure of complex applications. If you do it right, you can end up just writing the Python Code and File system is better in my opinion for that due to the debugger. However, it is tricky to get setup with argo uml in the first place. Plomino.net has a wonderful product that is very like python TTW development. It is not consistent with the Zope idioms, but it doesn't need to be because Plone users don't know them. It is very fast to develop and has good forms. I urge you to try it out. Don't be too harsh on Grok/Dexterity. Dexterity has worked out how not to repeat the definitions in interfaces, forms and content objects. It also produces an application with suprisingly little redundant code. I urge you to try it out. The benefits are of course quick turn around, version control, testability and the debugger. I made some edits on your wiki. Good Luck in your project Kevin > Thank you for the recent feedback. It is nice to know that people > care. I have added a section reviewing the competing technologies, and > why they are not right for my needs. I have laid out the technical > proposal, a bit high level, I need to make it more specific. For > example I need to add what is the interface that is needed by Factory > objects. The great thing about ZTK is that somewhere that is documented. > > I have added a section on my software philosophies. I am sure that it > will drive some people nuts, but others will agree with it. Allow me to > have my point of view. I also respect your point of view. > > I do get a bunch of people who say I am nuts. So positive feedback > would be most appreciated. > > And of courses it is an anonymous wiki. I am using the ZWiki software. > You are invited to add your comments. I have no idea what you will say, > but I am sure it is useful. > > Regards > Chris > ___ > Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org > https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev > ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** > (Related lists - > https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce > https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ) > > > ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] ZTK TTW Content Types Project Wiki
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Plone + Dexterity gives you exactly what you want Plone + GenericPloneContent gives you exactly what you want - -aj Christopher Lozinski wrote: > So I am starting a project to build content types through the web using > the ZTK. > > Here is the url. > > http://specialtyjobmarkets.com/Wikis/LozinskiClasses/FrontPage > > Thank you for the recent feedback. It is nice to know that people > care. I have added a section reviewing the competing technologies, and > why they are not right for my needs. I have laid out the technical > proposal, a bit high level, I need to make it more specific. For > example I need to add what is the interface that is needed by Factory > objects. The great thing about ZTK is that somewhere that is documented. > > I have added a section on my software philosophies. I am sure that it > will drive some people nuts, but others will agree with it. Allow me to > have my point of view. I also respect your point of view. > > I do get a bunch of people who say I am nuts. So positive feedback > would be most appreciated. > > And of courses it is an anonymous wiki. I am using the ZWiki software. > You are invited to add your comments. I have no idea what you will say, > but I am sure it is useful. > > Regards > Chris > ___ > Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org > https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev > ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** > (Related lists - > https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce > https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ) - -- ZOPYX Limited | zopyx group Charlottenstr. 37/1 | The full-service network for Zope & Plone D-72070 Tübingen| Produce & Publish www.zopyx.com | www.produce-and-publish.com - E-Publishing, Python, Zope & Plone development, Consulting -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (Darwin) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iQGUBAEBAgAGBQJMhRsUAAoJEADcfz7u4AZj26YLv0EuJkJe6t9ot4eZEpIQhIdu jO+Ws5p68WN9v9iVZzx6Hi/V2QT/+drNtHJ0rzcvAFV9LlIJ7HZ+PrHrCSsotZtQ kh18HK4iCH4qXFsZpcI2dDCfK/9o2W3bztOlQ2WSnFuNXddlzutStRadnmUOJgBn 0e+U48MhEM8tPEFpzeK5zdUZoQ8blj5lMQjMXtcvohF9XpC6ADwNE7kScJPJdqPm SZRwtZ6FjPVF3/+Km91B07/1NO8MP3Qwmzydu5LQStRJ7mzEJFnPX24Ow6mBqLUU oIo8N5InMZgo8WaXTdRtV0Zx+FgJMXeZ2J0Hnnxv9SidliuOLsKtOQezI1kEw/bC 2udaznZVFOrMoOvi5wgAw2BKaYBUFauMkN7YQyKLvdoPvEfEraGNgho1IHqE9VR9 Bhq6Dqw+x0xTTKtrr0D4KQ0wrQiQ8seTjnnFb+Y1BEQZGV5hXlardPiEwEpEsHXA ABTuELNYkmAhVblSFC4jyEHNOYu+tbg= =ux4z -END PGP SIGNATURE- <>___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
[Zope-dev] ZTK TTW Content Types Project Wiki
So I am starting a project to build content types through the web using the ZTK. Here is the url. http://specialtyjobmarkets.com/Wikis/LozinskiClasses/FrontPage Thank you for the recent feedback. It is nice to know that people care. I have added a section reviewing the competing technologies, and why they are not right for my needs. I have laid out the technical proposal, a bit high level, I need to make it more specific. For example I need to add what is the interface that is needed by Factory objects. The great thing about ZTK is that somewhere that is documented. I have added a section on my software philosophies. I am sure that it will drive some people nuts, but others will agree with it. Allow me to have my point of view. I also respect your point of view. I do get a bunch of people who say I am nuts. So positive feedback would be most appreciated. And of courses it is an anonymous wiki. I am using the ZWiki software. You are invited to add your comments. I have no idea what you will say, but I am sure it is useful. Regards Chris ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
