Re: [Zope-dev] Defining Interfaces
On Wed, 30 Jan 2002 10:08:35 -0700, Jeffrey P Shell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >>> Or, if you were defining the interface in IDL (mmm, >>> almost-avoiding-redundancy through acronyms!) with the target language being >>> Python, would you include self? >> >> But what if you were defining an interface as a Python class, with the >> target language being . Would you include >> self? > >I'm saying that you wouldn't. The point of IDL/ISL is that you wouldn't, >because the interface that you're specifying is independent of the target >language. Perhaps you misread. I agree the specification is independant of the target language. I agree that the content of the specification should be independent of the specification language. However, Im sure you agree that the text of the specification is intimitely dependant on the specification language. Using python classes as the specification language, but not including the 'self', seems (IMHO) to be as crazy as using C++ classes as the specification language but not using curly brackets. >> I think my conclusion here is that using python classes to define >> interfaces may be counterproductive. > >It may be the best we have (it's best understood by the target development >audience) As a product author I thought I *was* the target audience. >..[1] http://python.sourceforge.net/peps/pep-0245.html A good reference, thanks Toby Dickenson [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] Defining Interfaces
On 1/30/02 4:08 AM, "Toby Dickenson"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Mon, 28 Jan 2002 16:37:16 -0700, Jeffrey P Shell
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Many convincing arguments, but somehow I am not persuaded.
>
>> Or, if you were defining the interface in IDL (mmm,
>> almost-avoiding-redundancy through acronyms!) with the target language being
>> Python, would you include self?
>
> But what if you were defining an interface as a Python class, with the
> target language being . Would you include
> self?
I'm saying that you wouldn't. The point of IDL/ISL is that you wouldn't,
because the interface that you're specifying is independent of the target
language.
> I think my conclusion here is that using python classes to define
> interfaces may be counterproductive.
It may be the best we have (it's best understood by the target development
audience), unless PEP 245 [1] gets accepted into Python. You can also
declare interfaces in a more declarative fashion, but I do have to say that
the class way is preferable. Contrast::
>>> meths = {'sayHello': Interface.Method("Says hello to the user"),}
>>> IHello = Interface.new('IHello', [], meths)
>>> IHello.names()
['sayHello']
Is basically the same as:
>>> class IHello2(Interface.Base):
... def sayHello():
... "Says hello to the user"
...
>>> IHello2.names()
['sayHello']
..[1] http://python.sourceforge.net/peps/pep-0245.html
--
Jeffrey P Shell
www.cuemedia.com
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Re: [Zope-dev] Defining Interfaces
On Mon, 28 Jan 2002 16:37:16 -0700, Jeffrey P Shell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Many convincing arguments, but somehow I am not persuaded. >Or, if you were defining the interface in IDL (mmm, >almost-avoiding-redundancy through acronyms!) with the target language being >Python, would you include self? But what if you were defining an interface as a Python class, with the target language being . Would you include self? I think my conclusion here is that using python classes to define interfaces may be counterproductive. Toby Dickenson [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] Defining Interfaces
On Tue, Jan 29, 2002 at 07:47:46PM +, Florent Guillaume wrote: > > > When I define an Interface, are the methods of the interface supposed to > > > have "self" as the first argument? > > > > No. > > But this does preclude automatic validation of the "contract" using > python inheritance from the Interface, doesn't it ? Or will there be > another way ? No, the validation methods take into account that class members of an implementation will have a self-referential first argument. Detecting if an implementation is a class is trivial. -- Martijn Pieters | Software Engineer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] | Zope Corporation http://www.zope.com/ | Creators of Zope http://www.zope.org/ - ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] Defining Interfaces
> > When I define an Interface, are the methods of the interface supposed to > > have "self" as the first argument? > > No. But this does preclude automatic validation of the "contract" using python inheritance from the Interface, doesn't it ? Or will there be another way ? Florent -- Florent Guillaume, Nuxeo (Paris, France) +33 1 40 33 79 10 http://nuxeo.com mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] Defining Interfaces
At 03:17 PM 1/28/02 +, Chris Withers wrote: >Jeffrey P Shell wrote: > > > > On 1/27/02 11:25 AM, "Steve Alexander" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > Hi folks, > > > > > > When I define an Interface, are the methods of the interface supposed to > > > have "self" as the first argument? > > > > No. > >Can you expand on this a little? > >It doesn't make sense to me to exclude 'self'... Because when you *call* the methods, you don't pass 'self', it's implied. Since an interface is supposed to document the call signature, it actually doesn't make sense for it to include 'self', since it's not part of the call signature. Make sense? ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] Defining Interfaces
Steve and Jeff, Thanks for the great explanations :-) Now I'm curious about Python 2.2 and classes with static methods... cheers, Chris Jeffrey P Shell wrote: > > On 1/28/02 8:17 AM, "Chris Withers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > Jeffrey P Shell wrote: > >> > >> On 1/27/02 11:25 AM, "Steve Alexander" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >> > >>> Hi folks, > >>> > >>> When I define an Interface, are the methods of the interface supposed to > >>> have "self" as the first argument? > >> > >> No. > > > > Can you expand on this a little? > > > > It doesn't make sense to me to exclude 'self'... > > Jim [Fulton] explained it to me once. He can explain it better than I can. > But think of it this way -- theoretically, an interface can be implemented > by a folder full of Python scripts as [relatively] easily as it can be > implemented by a class. Should you then include all of the binding options > (context, container, etc)? > > Or, if you were defining the interface in IDL (mmm, > almost-avoiding-redundancy through acronyms!) with the target language being > Python, would you include self? > > An interface defines a contract on the usage of an object/component; it's > not necessarily a specification on how to implement it. The concept of > 'self' as the first argument for instance methods is a product of > implementing in a Python class (not to mention that 'self' is not a required > name, just an extremely common convention. You could use 'this' just as > easily). > > The big theory behind most component models is that the implementation > shouldn't matter so long as certain interfaces are satisfied. And the > following simple interface could be satisfied a number of ways in Zope > already - by a normal Python class implementation; by a folder with a Python > Script or External Method; by a ZClass with the same; or (in Python 2.2) by > a class with a static method (which would have no 'self'). > > class ISubscriber(Base): > """ Subscriber base interface """ > def EventService_inform(event): > """ Informs the subscriber that the event has occurred """ > > -- > Jeffrey P Shell > www.cuemedia.com ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] Defining Interfaces
On 1/28/02 8:17 AM, "Chris Withers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Jeffrey P Shell wrote: >> >> On 1/27/02 11:25 AM, "Steve Alexander" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> >>> Hi folks, >>> >>> When I define an Interface, are the methods of the interface supposed to >>> have "self" as the first argument? >> >> No. > > Can you expand on this a little? > > It doesn't make sense to me to exclude 'self'... Jim [Fulton] explained it to me once. He can explain it better than I can. But think of it this way -- theoretically, an interface can be implemented by a folder full of Python scripts as [relatively] easily as it can be implemented by a class. Should you then include all of the binding options (context, container, etc)? Or, if you were defining the interface in IDL (mmm, almost-avoiding-redundancy through acronyms!) with the target language being Python, would you include self? An interface defines a contract on the usage of an object/component; it's not necessarily a specification on how to implement it. The concept of 'self' as the first argument for instance methods is a product of implementing in a Python class (not to mention that 'self' is not a required name, just an extremely common convention. You could use 'this' just as easily). The big theory behind most component models is that the implementation shouldn't matter so long as certain interfaces are satisfied. And the following simple interface could be satisfied a number of ways in Zope already - by a normal Python class implementation; by a folder with a Python Script or External Method; by a ZClass with the same; or (in Python 2.2) by a class with a static method (which would have no 'self'). class ISubscriber(Base): """ Subscriber base interface """ def EventService_inform(event): """ Informs the subscriber that the event has occurred """ -- Jeffrey P Shell www.cuemedia.com ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] Defining Interfaces
Adrian Hungate wrote: > This is based on the new Python 2.2 stuff, isn't it? I would guess the > answer would be "You exclude the 'self' first arg in a class method". Not really. You exclude the "self" first argument of a static method. The first argument of a class method is where the class is passed. The reason that "self" is now excluded when defining interfaces comes from considering who reads interface definitions. By their nature, interfaces are meant to be read from the "outside"; from beyond the facade. The "self" attribute of methods is an implementation detail, and is not a concern of those who make calls on an interface. With Python2.2, you can demonstrate this by defining a class that has static methods only, but which still satisfies some interface definition. The "self" argument need not occur at all. -- Steve Alexander ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] Defining Interfaces
This is based on the new Python 2.2 stuff, isn't it? I would guess the answer would be "You exclude the 'self' first arg in a class method". Unfortunately I am still trying to digest what has changed in Python 2.2, so I am probably not the best person to answer beyond this point. There was a link on here (Or was it -announce) to the change docs for 2.2, that might give you some pointers. Adrian... -- The difficulty of tactical maneuvering consists in turning the devious into the direct, and misfortune into gain. - Sun Tzu - Original Message - From: "Chris Withers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Jeffrey P Shell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: "Steve Alexander" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "zope-dev" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Monday, January 28, 2002 3:17 PM Subject: Re: [Zope-dev] Defining Interfaces > Jeffrey P Shell wrote: > > > > On 1/27/02 11:25 AM, "Steve Alexander" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > Hi folks, > > > > > > When I define an Interface, are the methods of the interface supposed to > > > have "self" as the first argument? > > > > No. > > Can you expand on this a little? > > It doesn't make sense to me to exclude 'self'... > > cheers, > > Chris > > ___ > Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev > ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** > (Related lists - > http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce > http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ) > ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] Defining Interfaces
Jeffrey P Shell wrote: > > On 1/27/02 11:25 AM, "Steve Alexander" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > Hi folks, > > > > When I define an Interface, are the methods of the interface supposed to > > have "self" as the first argument? > > No. Can you expand on this a little? It doesn't make sense to me to exclude 'self'... cheers, Chris ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] Defining Interfaces
> > Shall I throw this into the Collector? > > Probably. I made a comment on the page itself, just a couple of days ago, > but it's unknown how often those comments are reviewed: They're not reviewed often by the editors, but they sure help folks who read them in the meantime, so I encourage folks to add comments to the Dev Guide when possible. - C ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] Defining Interfaces
On 1/27/02 3:09 PM, "Steve Alexander" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > In which case, perhaps we should change InterfaceInterface and > InterfaceBaseInterface from Interface/iclass.py to reflect this. > > The ZDG should also be updated to reflect this, as the example is wrong. > > http://www.zope.org/Documentation/ZDG/ComponentsAndInterfaces.stx > > from Interface import Base > > class Hello(Base): > """ The Hello interface provides greetings. """ > > def hello(self, name): > """ Say hello to the name """ > > class HelloComponent: > > __implements__ = Hello > > def hello(self, name): > return "hello %s!" % name > > > Shall I throw this into the Collector? Probably. I made a comment on the page itself, just a couple of days ago, but it's unknown how often those comments are reviewed: >> jshell - Jan. 24, 2002 12:56 pm - This should all be updated to reflect where >> interfaces are going for Zope 3. First, the interface should be named >> "IHello", and there should be no 'self' in the signature for the 'hello()' >> method. -- Jeffrey P Shell www.cuemedia.com Sent using the Entourage X Test Drive. ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] Defining Interfaces
Jeffrey P Shell wrote: > On 1/27/02 11:25 AM, "Steve Alexander" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > >>Hi folks, >> >>When I define an Interface, are the methods of the interface supposed to >>have "self" as the first argument? >> > > No. In which case, perhaps we should change InterfaceInterface and InterfaceBaseInterface from Interface/iclass.py to reflect this. The ZDG should also be updated to reflect this, as the example is wrong. http://www.zope.org/Documentation/ZDG/ComponentsAndInterfaces.stx from Interface import Base class Hello(Base): """ The Hello interface provides greetings. """ def hello(self, name): """ Say hello to the name """ class HelloComponent: __implements__ = Hello def hello(self, name): return "hello %s!" % name Shall I throw this into the Collector? -- Steve Alexander ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] Defining Interfaces
On 1/27/02 11:25 AM, "Steve Alexander" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Hi folks, > > When I define an Interface, are the methods of the interface supposed to > have "self" as the first argument? No. > It certainly seems that way from > ./lib/python/AccessControl/IUserFolder.py in Zope2. It also seems that > way from the Interface Interface. > > However, many of the interfaces in Zope3 omit the "self" argument. -- Jeffrey P Shell www.cuemedia.com Sent using the Entourage X Test Drive. ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
[Zope-dev] Defining Interfaces
Hi folks, When I define an Interface, are the methods of the interface supposed to have "self" as the first argument? It certainly seems that way from ./lib/python/AccessControl/IUserFolder.py in Zope2. It also seems that way from the Interface Interface. However, many of the interfaces in Zope3 omit the "self" argument. -- Steve Alexander ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
