Re: [Zope-dev] Introducing ZopePrints.
[Michel Pelletier] | We would love to see this description from you. The description of such a system/model in a Fishbowl project? Or just a general description? Sorry for being slow :) | I think it would be great to get examples of your problems in a case | study format, but also in a higher-level, pattern like description. Yes, that's what I'm after. Patterns. | Good luck! Thanks! It's good to see others interested in this :) ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] Introducing ZopePrints.
Ah that one. I was looking too deeply for something amusing there. -- Andy McKay. - Original Message - From: "Matt Hamilton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Andy McKay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: "Michel Pelletier" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Erik Enge" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2001 8:53 AM Subject: Re: [Zope-dev] Introducing ZopePrints. > On Wed, 14 Feb 2001, Andy McKay wrote: > > > Perhaps I need more beer but whats: F=MA? > > Force = Mass x Acceleration > > ie. the harder you kick the beer can the faster it will accelerate for any > given amount of beer in it. a.k.a why kicking empty beers can hurt your > toes less than kicking full ones. (why would you want to kick a full > one...?) > > :) > > -Matt > > -- > Matt Hamilton [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Netsight Internet Solutions, Ltd. Business Vision on the Internet > http://www.netsight.co.uk +44 (0)117 9090901 > Web Hosting | Web Design | Domain Names | Co-location | DB Integration > > > > ___ > Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev > ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** > (Related lists - > http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce > http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ) > ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] Introducing ZopePrints.
On Wed, 14 Feb 2001, Andy McKay wrote: > Perhaps I need more beer but whats: F=MA? Force = Mass x Acceleration ie. the harder you kick the beer can the faster it will accelerate for any given amount of beer in it. a.k.a why kicking empty beers can hurt your toes less than kicking full ones. (why would you want to kick a full one...?) :) -Matt -- Matt Hamilton [EMAIL PROTECTED] Netsight Internet Solutions, Ltd. Business Vision on the Internet http://www.netsight.co.uk +44 (0)117 9090901 Web Hosting | Web Design | Domain Names | Co-location | DB Integration ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] Introducing ZopePrints.
> partly on chaos theory, Jim's three laws of engineering (1. F=MA, 2. You > can't solve a problem unless you know the answer, 3. You can't push a > rope) and on the abundance of Thai food. Perhaps I need more beer but whats: F=MA? -- Andy McKay. - Original Message - From: "Michel Pelletier" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Erik Enge" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2001 9:46 PM Subject: Re: [Zope-dev] Introducing ZopePrints. > > > On 12 Feb 2001, Erik Enge wrote: > > > The rationale behind this is that the community at large would benefit > > from this by having _real_life_ case studies so when their time has > > come to implement an application in Zope, they don't fall into the > > same traps and pitfalls we did. Instead of benchmarks, the Zope > > community would use implementation documents to decide whether Zope is > > up for the job or not, that's what really helps. > > We would love to see this description from you. We inside DC have our own > problem solving development process that is large, complex, slow, but > often (IMO) accurate if done well. It is based partly on the "Rational" > model developed by the Three Amigos: > > http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node=the%20three%20amigos&lastnode_id=12 5995 > > partly on chaos theory, Jim's three laws of engineering (1. F=MA, 2. You > can't solve a problem unless you know the answer, 3. You can't push a > rope) and on the abundance of Thai food. > > We also have a "fishbowl" experiment community process, a "dogbowl" > content managment design process, a documentation process, and one > horse-choking travel policy. > > I think it would be great to get examples of your problems in a case study > format, but also in a higher-level, pattern like description. Your > description sounds like it is based on the problem and the goals, which is > really great. > > > > > I'm quite sure that it will also work as a tool for finding gaps and > > holes in either Zope or its tools and Products. > > Indeed. > > > We would like to start a project going in the Fishbowl which aims at > > creating the right tools to document a project as described above. > > The fishbowl is the perfect place to do this. In a conversation with > other people including Brian who is the "keeper of the fishbowl" we > realized that documentation artifacts come out of the fishbowl almost as > much as the software. In fact, that's one of the whole reasons for the > fishbowl, to come up with better software because we thought about it and > wrote down some words before we started hacking code. Instant > documentation. > > Good luck! > > -Michel > > > ___ > Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev > ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** > (Related lists - > http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce > http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ) > ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] Introducing ZopePrints.
On 12 Feb 2001, Erik Enge wrote: > The rationale behind this is that the community at large would benefit > from this by having _real_life_ case studies so when their time has > come to implement an application in Zope, they don't fall into the > same traps and pitfalls we did. Instead of benchmarks, the Zope > community would use implementation documents to decide whether Zope is > up for the job or not, that's what really helps. We would love to see this description from you. We inside DC have our own problem solving development process that is large, complex, slow, but often (IMO) accurate if done well. It is based partly on the "Rational" model developed by the Three Amigos: http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node=the%20three%20amigos&lastnode_id=125995 partly on chaos theory, Jim's three laws of engineering (1. F=MA, 2. You can't solve a problem unless you know the answer, 3. You can't push a rope) and on the abundance of Thai food. We also have a "fishbowl" experiment community process, a "dogbowl" content managment design process, a documentation process, and one horse-choking travel policy. I think it would be great to get examples of your problems in a case study format, but also in a higher-level, pattern like description. Your description sounds like it is based on the problem and the goals, which is really great. > > I'm quite sure that it will also work as a tool for finding gaps and > holes in either Zope or its tools and Products. Indeed. > We would like to start a project going in the Fishbowl which aims at > creating the right tools to document a project as described above. The fishbowl is the perfect place to do this. In a conversation with other people including Brian who is the "keeper of the fishbowl" we realized that documentation artifacts come out of the fishbowl almost as much as the software. In fact, that's one of the whole reasons for the fishbowl, to come up with better software because we thought about it and wrote down some words before we started hacking code. Instant documentation. Good luck! -Michel ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] Introducing ZopePrints.
On 12 Feb 2001, Erik Enge wrote: > [Tres Seaver] > > | Please see: > | > | http://dev.zope.org/Projects/PTK > | > | for our work-in-progress. > > Hey, looks like what I'm after. I can see that it's a work in > progress, so if you need any help, give me a shout. It didn't > say too much about the project itself, do you have any such > information on a page somewhere? Timescales? Goals? Thanks for pointing out the empty "Overview" -- in moving from the last, "PTK" version to the new, "CMF" version, I inadvertently left the description behind. As for timescale, we are planning to release CMF 1.0 at the end of this month. The exact deatils of the dogbowl site are still in flux (some want it to be at "cmf.zope.org", for instance). We also expect to have the membership integrated with the main zope.org stuff Real Soon Now. The core of the idea is that project artifacts are content, just like other content, and can be managed using the same tools. Tres. -- === Tres Seaver[EMAIL PROTECTED] Digital Creations "Zope Dealers" http://www.zope.org ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] Introducing ZopePrints.
[Tres Seaver] | Please see: | | http://dev.zope.org/Projects/PTK | | for our work-in-progress. Hey, looks like what I'm after. I can see that it's a work in progress, so if you need any help, give me a shout. It didn't say too much about the project itself, do you have any such information on a page somewhere? Timescales? Goals? ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] Introducing ZopePrints.
Erik Enge <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Some of us over at ZopeZen.org (http://www.zopezen.org>) have > been discussing the fenomena that is called ZopePrints. I'll give a > brief explanation, and would appretiate feedback as to whether this a > good idea or not. > > A ZopePrint is a document, or maybe a set of documents, which > describes a part of, or the complete development process for a Zope > application. This could include the whole process from when the > customers tell you they want to do project X with you, till you > actually finish it and it's up and running in the customers offices. > > Some points may be: > > * Problem definition > * Problem analysis > * Project management (Resource allocation) > * Design phase > * Zope design > * Test phase > > (Have a looksy at > http://www.zopezen.org/SDot/981475769/index_html> to check out > all the suggestions, and my initial post.) > > The rationale behind this is that the community at large would benefit > from this by having _real_life_ case studies so when their time has > come to implement an application in Zope, they don't fall into the > same traps and pitfalls we did. Instead of benchmarks, the Zope > community would use implementation documents to decide whether Zope is > up for the job or not, that's what really helps. > > I'm quite sure that it will also work as a tool for finding gaps and > holes in either Zope or its tools and Products. > > We would like to start a project going in the Fishbowl which aims at > creating the right tools to document a project as described above. > > Feel free to make suggestions! Funny you should mention that :) We have been working on just such a site, using the PTK^H^H^HCMF as a tool for managing its own project artifacts. We are calling the project the "CMF dogbowl", as it is a cross between the Fishbowl process and the "eat your own dogfood" mantra made famous by the Mozilla team. Please see: http://dev.zope.org/Projects/PTK for our work-in-progress. Note that this is a separate Zope instance from the rest of 'dev', and that your existing zope.org membership is not (yet) valid there. Tres. -- === Tres Seaver[EMAIL PROTECTED] Digital Creations "Zope Dealers" http://www.zope.org ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
[Zope-dev] Introducing ZopePrints.
¡Hola! Some of us over at ZopeZen.org (http://www.zopezen.org>) have been discussing the fenomena that is called ZopePrints. I'll give a brief explanation, and would appretiate feedback as to whether this a good idea or not. A ZopePrint is a document, or maybe a set of documents, which describes a part of, or the complete development process for a Zope application. This could include the whole process from when the customers tell you they want to do project X with you, till you actually finish it and it's up and running in the customers offices. Some points may be: * Problem definition * Problem analysis * Project management (Resource allocation) * Design phase * Zope design * Test phase (Have a looksy at http://www.zopezen.org/SDot/981475769/index_html> to check out all the suggestions, and my initial post.) The rationale behind this is that the community at large would benefit from this by having _real_life_ case studies so when their time has come to implement an application in Zope, they don't fall into the same traps and pitfalls we did. Instead of benchmarks, the Zope community would use implementation documents to decide whether Zope is up for the job or not, that's what really helps. I'm quite sure that it will also work as a tool for finding gaps and holes in either Zope or its tools and Products. We would like to start a project going in the Fishbowl which aims at creating the right tools to document a project as described above. Feel free to make suggestions! ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
