Re: [Zope-dev] Re: ZClasses useful! [Was: ZMI / JavaScript brainstorm]

2002-05-06 Thread Adrian Hungate

Maybe a little Perl psychology might help us here, i.e. "There is more than
one way to do it" - Some are faster, some more feature rich, and (in this
case) some are TTW codeable. The only ones that are actually _wrong_ are the
ones that don't work at all.

ZClasses are one of the two things that bring Zope up to and above the level
of the competition (In this case Coldfusion) IMHO - TTW coding, including
writing products TTW, and DTML which is far more powerful and focused than
the competitions offering.

I think that blindly disposing of both, just because a newer idea has come
along is just that - blind. So what if ZPT is more (choose your comparison
here) than DTML? DTML is far easier to learn, far easier to read, far easier
to write, and much much easier to explain to newbies.

It has always been clear that ZClasses are the poor relation of Python
products, but even that does not earn ZClasses a death warant (IMHO) - Have
you never needed a quick fix product that needs writing in a few minutes and
in a week will no longer be needed? I know I have - Many MANY times!

Just my $0.02

Adrian...

- Original Message -
From: "Andy McKay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Martijn Jacobs" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2002 3:52 AM
Subject: Re: [Zope-dev] Re: ZClasses useful! [Was: ZMI / JavaScript
brainstorm]


> > What's your efford on this task? If people like to use them, let them!
> > It's not up to you to decide for THEM what's best or not. The choice for
> > YOURSELF not to use them is just as fair as other peoples choices.
>
> Sure but many people ask more experienced developers for advice. I agree
> saying ZClasses suck totally is unhelpful. For people who dont know coding
> or want to do quick prototyping they have a place. However if someone asks
> me how to do a product, I normally give them the choice: use ZClasses but
I
> would strongly recommend using a Product etc (and then be ready with the
> reasons why which is the next question).
>
> Unfortunately people deciding the right and wrong ways for other people to
> code is a trait sometimes found in Python / Zope world. But dont get me
> started on that :)
> --
>   Andy McKay
>
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: [Zope-dev] Re: ZClasses useful! [Was: ZMI / JavaScript brainstorm]

2002-04-09 Thread Andy McKay

> What's your efford on this task? If people like to use them, let them!
> It's not up to you to decide for THEM what's best or not. The choice for
> YOURSELF not to use them is just as fair as other peoples choices.

Sure but many people ask more experienced developers for advice. I agree
saying ZClasses suck totally is unhelpful. For people who dont know coding
or want to do quick prototyping they have a place. However if someone asks
me how to do a product, I normally give them the choice: use ZClasses but I
would strongly recommend using a Product etc (and then be ready with the
reasons why which is the next question).

Unfortunately people deciding the right and wrong ways for other people to
code is a trait sometimes found in Python / Zope world. But dont get me
started on that :)
--
  Andy McKay






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Re: [Zope-dev] Re: ZClasses useful! [Was: ZMI / JavaScript brainstorm]

2002-04-09 Thread R. David Murray

On Tue, 9 Apr 2002, Martijn Jacobs wrote:
> > I will not stop dissing them until people stop using them and then
> complaining
> > when they break, don't do what they want or behave unexpectedly.
>
> What's your efford on this task? If people like to use them, let them!
> It's not up to you to decide for THEM what's best or not. The choice for
> YOURSELF not to use them is just as fair as other peoples choices.

Actually, we find on #zope-dev that if we steer newbies away from
zclasses and toward Products to begin with, they thank us later,
and it reduces our support burden.  The same can be said for this
list.  Chris does tend to be a little vociferous about it .

We aren't generally dealing with content devloper types in either place.

Learning ZClasses (because that's what was documented in the manual
at the time) rather than going straight to python products was
the *worst* mistake I made in starting to use Zope, myself.  It
probably set me back six to nine months.

--RDM



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