Re: [Zope3-dev] System python for *development*? (Was: 3.3.0 tag broken by zc.catalog eggs?)
Marius Gedminas wrote: * distros splitting the Python profiler into a separate package due to licencing problems, with a "helpful" stub that prints an informational message (go apt-get install python-profiler) instead of raising ImportError. On this one, I raised it with the package maintainer and I think this is now fixed... Chris -- Simplistix - Content Management, Zope & Python Consulting - http://www.simplistix.co.uk ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Zope3-dev] System python for *development*? (Was: 3.3.0 tag broken by zc.catalog eggs?)
Hi, Am Dienstag, den 22.05.2007, 20:56 +0300 schrieb Marius Gedminas: > Is there any documentation about how to extract the Python level stack > trace when you've attached to a Python program at C level with gdb? > (One of my fantasies (i.e. projects I'll never find the time to work on) > is adding Python support to sysprof, the whole-system statistical > profiler for Linux.) I just contributed an updated version of the gdb macros that allow you to do this. Look here: http://svn.python.org/view/python/trunk/Misc/gdbinit?rev=39492&view=auto My patch isn't in there yet, see this posting too: http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.comp.python.devel/88120 Christian -- gocept gmbh & co. kg - forsterstraße 29 - 06112 halle/saale - germany www.gocept.com - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - phone +49 345 122 9889 7 - fax +49 345 122 9889 1 - zope and plone consulting and development signature.asc Description: Dies ist ein digital signierter Nachrichtenteil ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Zope3-dev] System python for *development*? (Was: 3.3.0 tag broken by zc.catalog eggs?)
Marius Gedminas wrote at 2007-5-22 14:18 +0300: > ... >seem to be minor inconveniences rather than show-stoppers to me. I'd >love to hear real horror stories. I do not have horror stories but dislike system pythons because they tend to have debugging symbols stripped. Unfortunately, Zope applications sometimes crash or spin and it is often very efficient to be able to use a C level debugger to analyse such situations. However, this has only any hope when Python still has its debugging information... -- Dieter ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Zope3-dev] System python for *development*? (Was: 3.3.0 tag broken by zc.catalog eggs?)
On Tue, May 22, 2007 at 07:45:09PM +0200, Dieter Maurer wrote: > Marius Gedminas wrote at 2007-5-22 14:18 +0300: > > ... > >seem to be minor inconveniences rather than show-stoppers to me. I'd > >love to hear real horror stories. > > I do not have horror stories but dislike system pythons because > they tend to have debugging symbols stripped. > > Unfortunately, Zope applications sometimes crash or spin > and it is often very efficient to be able to use a C level > debugger to analyse such situations. However, this has only any > hope when Python still has its debugging information... Another good point. I recently needed that to figure out why Zope 3 request processing threads got stuck communicating with an aspell subprocess. (That's when I discovered that if I apt-get install python2.4-dbg in Ubuntu, I'll get debug symbols for the system Python.) Is there any documentation about how to extract the Python level stack trace when you've attached to a Python program at C level with gdb? (One of my fantasies (i.e. projects I'll never find the time to work on) is adding Python support to sysprof, the whole-system statistical profiler for Linux.) Marius Gedminas -- Place mark here ->[ ]<- if you want a dirty monitor. signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Zope3-dev] System python for *development*? (Was: 3.3.0 tag broken by zc.catalog eggs?)
On Mon, May 21, 2007 at 10:44:47AM -0400, Jim Fulton wrote: > On May 21, 2007, at 1:39 AM, Martijn Pieters wrote: > >Come again? Using the system python when developing has always been > >fine; > > No. It has never been fine for any aspect of development. If you > develop with your system Python and deploy with a custom environment, > then you've added a variable that is different between the two > environments. Also, system Python's are often hobbled in ways that > hurt development. > > I sometimes get really weird error reports that are traced to system > Pythons. People who report problems to me that result from using a > system Python make me angry and make me want to not answer their > questions or otherwise help them any more. I'd love to hear some anecdotes about this. The ones I know about: * distros releasing newer point versions of Python with security fixes (cgi.FieldStorage) that break Zope 3 * distros splitting the Python profiler into a separate package due to licencing problems, with a "helpful" stub that prints an informational message (go apt-get install python-profiler) instead of raising ImportError. seem to be minor inconveniences rather than show-stoppers to me. I'd love to hear real horror stories. Marius Gedminas -- Westheimer's Discovery: A couple of months in the laboratory can frequently save a couple of hours in the library. signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Zope3-dev] System python for *development*? (Was: 3.3.0 tag broken by zc.catalog eggs?)
On May 21, 2007, at 1:39 AM, Martijn Pieters wrote: On 5/21/07, Gary Poster <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: FWIW, I know zc.catalog but I'm certainly not an egg expert. But this message looks like you are maybe sharing a Python for various installations. Are you maybe using your system Python? Generally not advised for development work...try a standalone one? Come again? Using the system python when developing has always been fine; No. It has never been fine for any aspect of development. If you develop with your system Python and deploy with a custom environment, then you've added a variable that is different between the two environments. Also, system Python's are often hobbled in ways that hurt development. I sometimes get really weird error reports that are traced to system Pythons. People who report problems to me that result from using a system Python make me angry and make me want to not answer their questions or otherwise help them any more. System Python's have their place. The are appropriate for casual Python users and small one-off scripts, but not much else IMO. the recommendation has only applied to deployment situations in the past. The point is that using a manual, dedicated build for a deployment gives you full control over tweaking that build for best performance without interfering with other users of the interpreter on the same system. I run dozens of development instances on my laptop, all with the same Macports python 2.4 installation. Creating a separate python build for each of these would be impractical, to say the least. You don't have to use a Python per project to avoid the system Python. Just create a separate from-source installation and use that single installation. *Never* install anything into that installation. Whether you are using eggs or not, any packages not included in a Python build from source should be managed in your project area. Of course, eggs make this easier. (IMO, it is also reasonable to include a Python build in a buildout, as long as it automated and as long as you don't mind the extra disk space usage and build time. I prefer to use a shared clean Python myself.) However, it appears that the switch to eggs requires additional precautions to avoid your python system to be 'polluted' with various Zope3 packages. Perhaps we should recommend using workingenv for development work instead? Yes, as others have mentioned, you should use workingenv or buildout. (I wrote buildout because workingenv didn't provide enough control or automation for my needs.) Jim -- Jim Fulton mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Python Powered! CTO (540) 361-1714 http://www.python.org Zope Corporationhttp://www.zope.com http://www.zope.org ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Zope3-dev] System python for *development*? (Was: 3.3.0 tag broken by zc.catalog eggs?)
On 5/21/07, Gary Poster <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: FWIW, I know zc.catalog but I'm certainly not an egg expert. But this message looks like you are maybe sharing a Python for various installations. Are you maybe using your system Python? Generally not advised for development work...try a standalone one? Come again? Using the system python when developing has always been fine; the recommendation has only applied to deployment situations in the past. The point is that using a manual, dedicated build for a deployment gives you full control over tweaking that build for best performance without interfering with other users of the interpreter on the same system. I run dozens of development instances on my laptop, all with the same Macports python 2.4 installation. Creating a separate python build for each of these would be impractical, to say the least. However, it appears that the switch to eggs requires additional precautions to avoid your python system to be 'polluted' with various Zope3 packages. Perhaps we should recommend using workingenv for development work instead? -- Martijn Pieters ___ Zope3-dev mailing list Zope3-dev@zope.org Unsub: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/options/zope3-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
