Re: [Zope3-Users] thoughts about z3c.form-package
Am Mittwoch 08 Oktober 2008 01:11:24 schrieb garz: hey, while using z3c.form-package i reach its limits here and there. thats why i started to think about how a more general implemention should look like. my intention of writing this is that i want to know what you are thinking about it and i want to know the design-decisions that led to the different aspects of z3c.form. in the first part i try to give definitions of the concepts of z3c.form as would understand them. summary: z3c.form is all about this one use-case where the user describes a context with the help of a schema. you define fields, those fields are used to create fieldwidgets and those are rendered in the standard-forms from z3c.formui. its very nice to have this use-case well supported, but this support should be based on more general implementations. this would enable the user to create any kind of form. Yes, that's the obvious use-case. However, there's much more you can do with z3c.form, I often use z3c.form for context-less patterns, or use a session as context. In my scenario here, I sparely use ZODB, instead, I have SQLAlchemy-based functions that I call in the button handlers. Thus I have already interfaces/schemas for all RDB objects, and what I do is to define interfaces for those forms and copy those schemas I need into this form-interface. Then I can use this interface in my form via field.Fields(IMyForm). But I have to admit, it took me quite a long time to implement certain patterns, and very often, the solution I tried was not possible due to some complicated z3c.form internals, meaning, I often tried to violate some concepts (as I did not understand them). I think I'm not the only one here, I read quite often about similar problems in this list here, so this is my resumee: - z3c.form is complex - It's not obvious how to implement certain form-patterns - People are often overwhelmed by that and don't look through So, I think two solutions to that could be: - Improve the documentation (however, I'm unsure in what way, though). - Create a WIKI or something similar where people can find suggestions how to implement certain patterns with z3c.form. - Do some voting machinery where people can choose which patterns they really use. This information may be valuable to find out what people expect from a form package and which concepts people actually understand and use. - If we find patterns that can not be implemented with z3c.form in a viable way, try to extend z3c.form so that it is possible. For me, this looks like the better approach than to trying to implement a better form package that may lead to the very same problems as z3c.form in the end. Best Regards, Hermann -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] GPG key ID: 299893C7 (on keyservers) FP: 0124 2584 8809 EF2A DBF9 4902 64B4 D16B 2998 93C7 ___ Zope3-users mailing list Zope3-users@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope3-users
Re: [Zope3-Users] thoughts about z3c.form-package
On Wed, 2008-10-08 at 06:25 +0200, Roger Ineichen wrote: Adam Groszer is working on a ObjectWidget implementation. What is the proposed functionality of ObjectWidget? Thanks, Tim -- Timothy Cook, MSc Health Informatics Research Development Services LinkedIn Profile:http://www.linkedin.com/in/timothywaynecook Skype ID == timothy.cook ** *You may get my Public GPG key from popular keyservers or * *from this link http://timothywayne.cook.googlepages.com/home* ** ___ Zope3-users mailing list Zope3-users@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope3-users
Re: [Zope3-Users] thoughts about z3c.form-package
Hi Tim, Adam Betreff: Re: [Zope3-Users] thoughts about z3c.form-package On Wed, 2008-10-08 at 06:25 +0200, Roger Ineichen wrote: Adam Groszer is working on a ObjectWidget implementation. What is the proposed functionality of ObjectWidget? The ObjectWidget is a widget for an IObject field. This field is used for attributes which provide a own schema and hold a refenece to a pyton instance providing this schema. (does this make sense?) Probably a sample explains it better. The attribute door in the sample below is an Object field. class IDoor(zope.interface.Interface): A cars door. color = zope.schem.TextLine( title=u'Color') class ICar(zope.interface.Interface): A car. door = zope.schem.Object( title=u'A cars door', schema=IDoor) ... The ObjectWidget is now responsible for render an input widgets in an EditForm for the color attribte of the door. Adam, is this correct? Regards Roger Ineichen Thanks, Tim -- Timothy Cook, MSc Health Informatics Research Development Services LinkedIn Profile:http://www.linkedin.com/in/timothywaynecook Skype ID == timothy.cook ** *You may get my Public GPG key from popular keyservers or * *from this link http://timothywayne.cook.googlepages.com/home* ** ___ Zope3-users mailing list Zope3-users@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope3-users
Re: [Zope3-Users] thoughts about z3c.form-package
Hey Roger, Yes, you're right, thanks for the explanation. Wednesday, October 8, 2008, 3:32:04 PM, you wrote: RI Hi Tim, Adam Betreff: Re: [Zope3-Users] thoughts about z3c.form-package On Wed, 2008-10-08 at 06:25 +0200, Roger Ineichen wrote: Adam Groszer is working on a ObjectWidget implementation. What is the proposed functionality of ObjectWidget? RI The ObjectWidget is a widget for an IObject field. RI This field is used for attributes which provide a own RI schema and hold a refenece to a pyton instance RI providing this schema. (does this make sense?) RI Probably a sample explains it better. RI The attribute door in the sample below is an Object field. RI class IDoor(zope.interface.Interface): RI A cars door. RI color = zope.schem.TextLine( RI title=u'Color') RI class ICar(zope.interface.Interface): RI A car. RI door = zope.schem.Object( RI title=u'A cars door', RI schema=IDoor) RI ... RI The ObjectWidget is now responsible for render an input RI widgets in an EditForm for the color attribte of the door. RI Adam, is this correct? RI Regards RI Roger Ineichen Thanks, Tim -- Timothy Cook, MSc Health Informatics Research Development Services LinkedIn Profile:http://www.linkedin.com/in/timothywaynecook Skype ID == timothy.cook ** *You may get my Public GPG key from popular keyservers or * *from this link http://timothywayne.cook.googlepages.com/home* ** RI ___ RI Zope3-users mailing list RI Zope3-users@zope.org RI http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope3-users -- Best regards, Adam GROSZERmailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Quote of the day: She who loves roses must be patient and not cry out when she is pierced by thorns. - Brouman, Olga ___ Zope3-users mailing list Zope3-users@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope3-users
Re: [Zope3-Users] thoughts about z3c.form-package
On Wed, 2008-10-08 at 15:32 +0200, Roger Ineichen wrote: What is the proposed functionality of ObjectWidget? The ObjectWidget is a widget for an IObject field. This field is used for attributes which provide a own schema and hold a refenece to a pyton instance providing this schema. (does this make sense?) Yes, it makes perfect sense to me. I have LOTS of these in my implementation. http://www.openehr.org/svn/ref_impl_python/TRUNK/oship/src/oship/openehr/ I just do not have working forms yet. :-( I still have a lot to learn about z3c.form I am assuming, though haven't tried, that I can specify an interface that is maybe 3,4 or more steps through Object attributes and have the correct widget (text, textline, etc.) render? The ObjectWidget is now responsible for render an input widgets in an EditForm for the color attribte of the door. Sorry but I have *no clue* what this means. Cheers, Tim ___ Zope3-users mailing list Zope3-users@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope3-users
Re: [Zope3-Users] thoughts about z3c.form-package
Hello Tim, Wednesday, October 8, 2008, 3:52:20 PM, you wrote: TC I am assuming, though haven't tried, that I can specify an interface TC that is maybe 3,4 or more steps through Object attributes and have the TC correct widget (text, textline, etc.) render? It should, but actually those 3,4 levels sound like you'd need some sort of subforms or even separated forms for those. (I say that without having a look at your interfaces) -- Best regards, Adam GROSZERmailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Quote of the day: All changes, even the most longed for, have their melancholy; for what we leave behind is a part of ourselves; we must die to one life before we can enter into another! - Anatole France ___ Zope3-users mailing list Zope3-users@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope3-users
Re: [Zope3-Users] thoughts about z3c.form-package
Hi Tim Betreff: Re: AW: [Zope3-Users] thoughts about z3c.form-package On Wed, 2008-10-08 at 15:32 +0200, Roger Ineichen wrote: What is the proposed functionality of ObjectWidget? The ObjectWidget is a widget for an IObject field. This field is used for attributes which provide a own schema and hold a refenece to a pyton instance providing this schema. (does this make sense?) Yes, it makes perfect sense to me. I have LOTS of these in my implementation. http://www.openehr.org/svn/ref_impl_python/TRUNK/oship/src/osh ip/openehr/ I just do not have working forms yet. :-( I still have a lot to learn about z3c.form Don't forget to take a look at z3c.formdemo. This package shows many different usecases. I think we should probably write more demos which could show some different concepts for z3c.form. I am assuming, though haven't tried, that I can specify an interface that is maybe 3,4 or more steps through Object attributes and have the correct widget (text, textline, etc.) render? I'm not sure if the widget works for nested objects. Which whould allow to render more then one level of objects. The ObjectWidget is now responsible for render an input widgets in an EditForm for the color attribte of the door. Sorry but I have *no clue* what this means. Oh, this was a comment to the sample in my mail. The color means the IDoor.color attribute. Regards Roger Ineichen Cheers, Tim ___ Zope3-users mailing list Zope3-users@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope3-users
Re: [Zope3-Users] thoughts about z3c.form-package
Hi Hermann Betreff: Re: [Zope3-Users] thoughts about z3c.form-package [...] I think I'm not the only one here, I read quite often about similar problems in this list here, so this is my resumee: - z3c.form is complex - It's not obvious how to implement certain form-patterns - People are often overwhelmed by that and don't look through I agree that if you use z3c.form and if you try to do some complex things that it is not allways simple. But that's because z3c.form offers everything what you need for doing what everybody needs. It's not only an AddForm, EditForm or DisplayForm generator, z3c.form is much more. in my point of view z3c.form.browser is just one (defualt) implementation which is usable out of the box fo most HTML generting forms. The core of z3c.form (without the browser package) can be used for other things then HTML generated output. So, I think two solutions to that could be: - Improve the documentation (however, I'm unsure in what way, though). - Create a WIKI or something similar where people can find suggestions how to implement certain patterns with z3c.form. That's a very good idea [...] - If we find patterns that can not be implemented with z3c.form in a viable way, try to extend z3c.form so that it is possible. Yes, we should implement more things, e.g. the ObjectWidget and better sub forms. Anything else? For me, this looks like the better approach than to trying to implement a better form package that may lead to the very same problems as z3c.form in the end. I think it's an illusion ot write a simpler form package which does a better job and is simpler at the same time. Every concept will ha ve it own edges and limitations. But I whould agree that it's possible to write a simpler form package which only has the goal to generate schema field based HTML widgets. But the problem is if you are using such a package and you need to write a PDF generator you can't probably use that simpler framwork and you have to find another way do to the same again. Probably we can add another API for z3c.form and write a z3c.formzcml package which offers the same editForm and addForm ZCML directives which zope.app.form offers. This whould probably make things simpler if you start using z3c.form. Regards Roger Ineichen Best Regards, Hermann -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] GPG key ID: 299893C7 (on keyservers) FP: 0124 2584 8809 EF2A DBF9 4902 64B4 D16B 2998 93C7 ___ Zope3-users mailing list Zope3-users@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope3-users ___ Zope3-users mailing list Zope3-users@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope3-users
Re: [Zope3-Users] thoughts about z3c.form-package
Am Mittwoch 08 Oktober 2008 16:28:07 schrieb Roger Ineichen: Hi Hermann Betreff: Re: [Zope3-Users] thoughts about z3c.form-package [...] So, I think two solutions to that could be: - Improve the documentation (however, I'm unsure in what way, though). - Create a WIKI or something similar where people can find suggestions how to implement certain patterns with z3c.form. That's a very good idea [...] - If we find patterns that can not be implemented with z3c.form in a viable way, try to extend z3c.form so that it is possible. Yes, we should implement more things, e.g. the ObjectWidget and better sub forms. Anything else? Well, that looks like the major points. What I specifically need, are lists of ObjectWidgets (representing relations in an RDB). For me, this looks like the better approach than to trying to implement a better form package that may lead to the very same problems as z3c.form in the end. I think it's an illusion ot write a simpler form package which does a better job and is simpler at the same time. Every concept will ha ve it own edges and limitations. But I whould agree that it's possible to write a simpler form package which only has the goal to generate schema field based HTML widgets. But the problem is if you are using such a package and you need to write a PDF generator you can't probably use that simpler framwork and you have to find another way do to the same again. Exactly. Probably we can add another API for z3c.form and write a z3c.formzcml package which offers the same editForm and addForm ZCML directives which zope.app.form offers. This whould probably make things simpler if you start using z3c.form. Hmmm, well, I'm not so sure about that. I personally have minor usage for such vanilla-implementations. At first, such things may suffice, but later on, I always needed some specific form behaviour that is not covered out of the box. Moreover, z3c.form is complex, but it isn't hard if one knows what to do/how to do - which leads me back to my WIKI idea... Best Regards, Hermann -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] GPG key ID: 299893C7 (on keyservers) FP: 0124 2584 8809 EF2A DBF9 4902 64B4 D16B 2998 93C7 ___ Zope3-users mailing list Zope3-users@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope3-users
Re: [Zope3-Users] thoughts about z3c.form-package
(Thanks Roger and Adam for your earlier replies.) On Wed, 2008-10-08 at 16:59 +0200, Hermann Himmelbauer wrote: Moreover, z3c.form is complex, but it isn't hard if one knows what to do/how to do - which leads me back to my WIKI idea... Hermann, This is a very good point. For those of us just trying to get a handle on how to use z3c.form, in the best and most efficient way, a Wiki is a great way to collect patterns. I think (feel?) that z3c.form is a very powerful package and the documentation isn't bad either. Some of us learn better by seeing actual use cases though in order to adapt them to our own needs. This usually means that folks like Roger, Stephen, etc. can keep doing what they do best (making the package better) and experienced users can contribute their experiences and ideas via the Wiki. (My 2 cents) Regards, --Tim -- Timothy Cook, MSc Health Informatics Research Development Services LinkedIn Profile:http://www.linkedin.com/in/timothywaynecook Skype ID == timothy.cook ** *You may get my Public GPG key from popular keyservers or * *from this link http://timothywayne.cook.googlepages.com/home* ** ___ Zope3-users mailing list Zope3-users@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope3-users
Re: [Zope3-Users] thoughts about z3c.form-package
thx for your replies! now i have new stuff to think about. :) Can you give an example what you can't do with z3c.form? i think z3c.form is in respect of what can be done with it general enough. i can realize what i want to do with it plus i know how to do it. it isnt that i dont understand z3c.form, i even think i nearly fully understand it. the issue is, that i cant do it in a nice way and i think if z3c.form would be structured differently, this shouldnt be a problem... at least i think that. but maybe this will change after thinking about what you guys wrote. then i will probably be back with new stuff to discuss, when i try to realize my list- and dict-forms further on. :) I have some ideas how I think a subform should be implemented. THe existing implementation doesn't fit. It at least has some issues if you write complex forms with complex action and handlers. The update order of a form and subform is an important part which doesn't fit in the existing implementation. since you mean by subform this: A subform should be used to write forms with totaly different objects as context. A sub form can probably used for write a form for items in a container etc. what are your imaginations about the problem that would arise? why should the update-order should be an issue? In general I see your point, z3c.form provides many, many hooks which looks like a little or big overhead. this wasnt what i wanted to express. :D i dont think that there are too many hooks, i like them and i think this is a really nice design with those adapters. i have never seen this before and and know that i understand it i can say that i learned a lot. =) Let's see what Adam Groszer is doing with the ObjectWidget implementation, probably this could be used for your use cases. this objectwidget would really be nice. i already have a working implementation with my own subform-package that you took a look at. and i already tried to turn it into an objectwidget, but then i didnt like the way it would have to be done in z3c.form and i started thinking about a better form-package and this thread was born. :D but now, as i said, i will have to think over everything again. then i'll be back. :D until then i made a uml-graph, giving an overview over z3c.form-package. it shows the classes, their methods and the hooks, conceptually. this means i added the (from my point of view) most important things that show how z3c.form works. it should be a lot easier studying z3c.form from this chart, but combined with looking at the sources, if more detailed knowledge is needed (and maybe i forgot a detail here and there :). all those hooks are bold, interfaces are yellow and functions red. the file is in pdf-format and the graph therefor is a vectorgraphic. but subform- and groups-package are missing. hope this helps. at least it should be a nice overview that prevents you from looking at the sources too often. here it is: http://rapidshare.de/files/40641861/z3c.form.pdf.html greets garz -- View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/thoughts-about-z3c.form-package-tp19869292p19891158.html Sent from the Zope3 - users mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Zope3-users mailing list Zope3-users@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope3-users
[Zope3-Users] Named layouts for z3c.pagelet
Hello, I need use several layout templates in same layer for z3c.pagelet-based browser views. For this, in current project I did follow: renderer.py: from zope.component import getMultiAdapter from z3c.template.interfaces import ILayoutTemplate def layoutRenderer(self): Allow to use named layout templates. try: name = self.layout_name except: name = u'' self.update() if self.layout is None: layout = getMultiAdapter((self, self.request), ILayoutTemplate, name) return layout(self) return self.layout() So, a pagelet's code look like: from renderer import layoutRenderer class Pagelet(object): __call__ = layoutRenderer and usual pass the name into zcml-directive: z3c:pagelet ... layout-name=narrow / And layout-directive from z3c.template allow define name. Summary, it quite convenient. But my proposal - let's add this feature into z3c.pagelet package. -- Ilshad Habibullin Gadoz, Inc (http://www.gadoz.com) ___ Zope3-users mailing list Zope3-users@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope3-users
Re: [Zope3-Users] Named layouts for z3c.pagelet
For example, default empty layout_name in pagelet directive handler (and not use try ... except). 2008/10/9 Ilshad [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hello, I need use several layout templates in same layer for z3c.pagelet-based browser views. For this, in current project I did follow: renderer.py: from zope.component import getMultiAdapter from z3c.template.interfaces import ILayoutTemplate def layoutRenderer(self): Allow to use named layout templates. try: name = self.layout_name except: name = u'' self.update() if self.layout is None: layout = getMultiAdapter((self, self.request), ILayoutTemplate, name) return layout(self) return self.layout() So, a pagelet's code look like: from renderer import layoutRenderer class Pagelet(object): __call__ = layoutRenderer and usual pass the name into zcml-directive: z3c:pagelet ... layout-name=narrow / And layout-directive from z3c.template allow define name. Summary, it quite convenient. But my proposal - let's add this feature into z3c.pagelet package. -- Ilshad Habibullin Gadoz, Inc (http://www.gadoz.com) -- Ilshad Habibullin Gadoz, Inc (http://www.gadoz.com) ___ Zope3-users mailing list Zope3-users@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope3-users
[Zope3-Users] ZCML Layout Decision?
Hi All, What are your thoughts on the best way to implement the configure.zcml files for this application framework? The framework is a nested structure up to five levels deep in places of approximately 150 classes. Would it be better/more efficient to create a configure.zcml in each package or just one at the top level? Another design decision is that this is a framework for application developers and probably 99% of them will have no previous Zope experience. So teaching them how to setup zcml for their own security declarations etc will be an issue as well. Thanks, Tim -- Timothy Cook, MSc Health Informatics Research Development Services LinkedIn Profile:http://www.linkedin.com/in/timothywaynecook Skype ID == timothy.cook ** *You may get my Public GPG key from popular keyservers or * *from this link http://timothywayne.cook.googlepages.com/home* ** ___ Zope3-users mailing list Zope3-users@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope3-users
