Hi Javed,

 

Anything we do (all) in our personal and professional lives, is subjected to 
laws.

 

Any organization rules, is bound to laws, we like it or not.

 

Clearly, we can’t say in a policy, if we don’t like a guy, we can discriminate 
him and not provide him resources, or allow him to come to meetings, or 
whatever. Those are very obvious silly examples, just to provide an idea of 
what I mean.

 

I’m sorry, but even chairs I’m sure try their best, they can make errors, and 
the community in a bottom-up approach, must be able to resolve it.

 

Opposing to an appeal process is precisely saying “go to courts”, which I think 
is what any community want to avoid.

 

Please, see also my previous email on this. There is no way, in the PDP, the 
chairs can oppose because they believe is “out-of-scope”. This is broken and we 
must fix it.

 

Regards,

Jordi

@jordipalet

 

 

 

El 29/8/19 3:19, "Javed Khan" <javedkha...@outlook.com> escribió:

 

PDP is a community driven consensus process agreed by the community not by 
courts nor legal experts. I am confused with your reference to "courts", 
"ilegal" and "legislation". If the intention here to scare the community then 
its truly not required.

 

I think under the current PDP the Chairs have the right to make a decision 
within the scope and principles and rules as agreed by the community. If the 
Chairs rejected one of your proposal, I'm sure the Chairs would have given you 
a reason and other options. This is between you and the Chairs. These people 
are elected by the community and we trust their decision.

 

I strongly oppose for an appeal process. We build the networks without any 
"appeal" process and so we can also work together to discuss the proposals.

 

J Khan

 

From: sig-policy-boun...@lists.apnic.net <sig-policy-boun...@lists.apnic.net> 
on behalf of JORDI PALET MARTINEZ <jordi.pa...@consulintel.es>
Sent: Monday, 26 August 2019 6:05 PM
To: Policy SIG <sig-pol...@apnic.net>
Subject: Re: [sig-policy] Version 4 of prop-126 PDP Update 

 

Hi Javed,

 

I don’t agree, let me explain why.

 

The current process only talks about the meeting and the chairs have clearly 
indicated that they take in consideration the list and the confer. Anyone from 
the community that dislikes a consensus/non-consensus decision, could create a 
trouble even in courts, because we are accepting consensus from sources not 
documented in the PDP. Rewording it resolves the problem.

 

Furthermore, the current process has not an “in-process” appeal procces. This 
will be ilegal in may legislations (may be only the AU applies, but considering 
that the community is “the entire Internet”, may be this may be declared 
illegal in another country where a member decides to claim for). The only way 
(actually) to appeal, will be going to the courts. We should not aim to that. 
We should have an internal way.

 

This is now even more relevant to be resolved, because by chance, the chairs 
have denied to accept one of the policy proposal that I’ve submited. They 
consider it out-of-scope, and my reading is that is in-scope (it has also been 
submitted and in-scope to RIPE, LACNIC and AFRINIC). I think their decision is 
wrong and this has many implications that we need to work out. The best avenue 
is having an “in-house” appeal process, of course.

 

Note that I didn’t knew, when I submitted the PDP update (which is a new 
version from a the previous year proposal), that one of my proposals will be 
considered by the chairs as out-of-scope. Clarification just so nobody believes 
that it is related to that rejection! Chairs can confirm that.

 

Regards,

Jordi

@jordipalet

 

 

 

El 23/8/19 15:48, "Javed Khan" <sig-policy-boun...@lists.apnic.net en nombre de 
javedkha...@outlook.com> escribió:

 

I do not support this proposal as I have complete trust in the current APNIC 
PDP and this community.

 

Kind regards

Javed Khan

MSCE and CCSP

 

From: sig-policy-boun...@lists.apnic.net <sig-policy-boun...@lists.apnic.net> 
on behalf of Sumon Ahmed Sabir <sasa...@gmail.com>
Sent: Friday, 9 August 2019 2:13 AM
To: Policy SIG <sig-pol...@apnic.net>
Subject: [sig-policy] Version 4 of prop-126 PDP Update 

 

 

Dear SIG members

A new version of the proposal "prop-126: PDP Update" has been sent to 
the Policy SIG for review.

It will be presented at the Open Policy Meeting at APNIC 48 in
Chiang Mai, Thailand on Thursday, 12 September 2019.

Information about earlier versions is available from:
https://www.apnic.net/community/policy/proposals/prop-126/

You are encouraged to express your views on the proposal:

  - Do you support or oppose the proposal?
  - Is there anything in the proposal that is not clear?
  - What changes could be made to this proposal to make it more effective?

Please find the text of the proposal below.

Kind Regards,

Sumon, Bertrand, Ching-Heng
APNIC Policy SIG Chairs


----------------------------------------------------------------------

prop-126-v004: PDP Update

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Proposer: Jordi Palet Martínez
           jordi.pa...@theipv6company.com


1. Problem Statement
--------------------

With its requirement of face-to-face participation at the OPM, the current
PDP might – at least partially – be the cause of the low levels of 
community
participation in the process by using the policy mailing list.

This proposal would allow an increased participation, by explicitly 
considering
  the comments in the list for the consensus determination. So, 
consensus would
be determined balancing the mailing list and the forum, and would therefore
increase community participation.

Even if this is actually done by the chairs, it is not part of the 
actual PDP,
and thus constitutes a very clear and explicit violation of the PDP and 
the risk
is that anyone from the community could appeal any decision based on that.

Finally, it completes the PDP by adding a simple mechanism for solving 
disagreements
during an appeals phase and an improved definition of ‘consensus’, as 
well as a
complete definition of the “consensus” and “last-call”.


2. Objective of policy change
-----------------------------

To allow that consensus is determined formally looking at the opinions 
of community
members that are not able to travel to the meetings and facilitating a 
simple method
for appeals.


3. Situation in other regions
-----------------------------

The PDP is different in the different RIRs. This proposal is similar to 
the RIPE PDP,
possibly the region with the broadest participation in its policy 
proposal discussions,
although there are certain differences such as the mandatory use of the 
mailing list and
the meeting, which is more similar to the PDP at ARIN (another region 
with broad community
participation). LACNIC has recently adopted a similar policy proposal 
with the same aims.


4. Proposed policy solution
---------------------------

Current Text    
Step 2: Consensus at the OPM
Consensus is defined as “general agreement” as observed by the Chair of 
the meeting.
Consensus must be reached first at the SIG session and afterwards at the 
Member Meeting
for the process to continue. If there is no consensus on a proposal at 
either of these
forums, the SIG (either on the mailing list or at a future OPM) will 
discuss whether to
amend the proposal or to withdraw it.

New Text
Step 2: Consensus Determination
Consensus is defined as “rough consensus” as observed by the Chairs.

Consensus is determined first considering the SIG mailing list, other 
electronic means,
and the SIG session, and afterwards at the Member Meeting.

If there is no consensus on a proposal, the authors can decide to 
withdraw it.

Otherwise, the proposal will expire in six months, unless a new version 
is provided,
restarting the discussions with the community.

==================================================

Current Text
Step 3: Discussion after the OPM
Proposals that have reached consensus at the OPM and the AMM will be 
circulated on the
appropriate SIG mailing list for a period. This is known as the “comment 
period”.
The duration of the “comment period” will be not shorter than four weeks 
and not longer
than eight weeks.  The decision to extend more than four weeks, 
including the duration
of the extension, will be determined at the sole discretion of the SIG 
Chair.


New Text
Step 3: Last-Call
Proposals that have reached consensus at the OPM and the AMM will be 
circulated on the
appropriate SIG mailing during four weeks.

The purpose of the “last-call” is to provide the community with a brief 
and final opportunity
to comment on the proposal, especially those who didn’t earlier.

Consequently, during this period editorial comments may be submitted 
and, exceptionally,
objections if any aspect is discovered that was not considered in the 
discussion prior
to determining consensus.

Any new objections must also be substantiated and must therefore not be 
based on opinions
lacking a technical justification.

===================================================

Current Text
Step 4: Confirming consensus
Consensus is assumed to continue unless there are substantial objections 
raised during the
“comment period”. When the “comment period” has expired, the appropriate 
SIG Chair
(and Co-chairs) will decide whether the discussions on the mailing list 
represent continued.
If the Chair (and Co-chairs) observe that there are no “substantial 
objections” to the
proposed policy, consensus is confirmed and the process continues as 
outlined below in Step 5.
If it is observed that there have been “substantial objections” raised 
to the proposed policy,
consensus is not confirmed and the proposal will not be implemented. The 
SIG will then discuss
(either on the mailing list or in the SIG) whether to pursue the 
proposal or withdraw it.


New Text
Step 4: Confirming consensus
In a maximum of one week, after the end of the “last-call”, the Chairs 
will confirm whether
consensus is maintained and the process continues as outlined below in 
Step 5.

If it is observed that there have been “new substantial objections” 
raised to the proposed policy,
consensus is not confirmed and the proposal will not be implemented.

The authors can decide to withdraw it, or provide a new version, 
following the discussions with
the community. The proposal will expire in six months, unless a new 
version is provided.

====================================================

Appeals process
In case of disagreement during the process, any member of the community 
must initially bring
the matter to the mailing list for consideration by the Chairs.

Alternately, if any member considers that the Chairs have violated the 
process or erred in their
judgement, they may appeal their decision through the EC, which must 
decide the matter within a
period of four weeks.


Definition of “Rough Consensus”
Achieving “rough consensus” does not mean that proposals are voted for 
and against, nor that
the number of “yes's”, “no's” and “abstentions” – or even participants – 
are counted, but that
the proposal has been discussed not only by its author(s) but also by 
other members of the community,
regardless of their number, and that, after a period of discussion, all 
critical technical objections
have been resolved.

In general, this might coincide with a majority of members of the 
community in favor of the proposal,
and with those who are against the proposal basing their objections on 
technical reasons as opposed to
“subjective” reasons. In other words, low participation or participants 
who disagree for reasons that
are not openly explained should not be considered a lack of consensus.

Objections should not be measured by their number, but instead by their 
nature and quality within the
context of a given proposal. For example, a member of the community 
whose opinion is against a proposal
might receive many “emails” (virtual or real) in their support, yet the 
chairs might consider that the
opinion has already been addressed and technically refuted during the 
debate; in this case, the chairs
would ignore those expressions of support against the proposal.

For information purposes, the definition of “consensus” used by the RIRs 
and the IETF is actually that of
“rough consensus”, which allows better clarifying the goal in this 
context, given that “consensus”
(Latin for agreement) might be interpreted as “agreed by al”’ 
(unanimity). More specifically, RFC7282,
explains that “Rough consensus is achieved when all issues are 
addressed, but not necessarily accommodated.”

Consequently, the use of “consensus” in the PDP, must be interpreted as 
“rough consensus”.


5. Advantages / Disadvantages
-----------------------------

Advantages:
Fulfilling the objectives above indicated and making sure that there is 
no formal discrimination with
community members that aren’t able to travel.

Disadvantages:
None foreseen.


6. Impact on resource holders
-----------------------------

None.


7. References
-------------
http://www.lacnic.net/679/2/lacnic/policy-development-process
https://www.ripe.net/publications/docs/ripe-710

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