Hi Owen,
El 27/8/19 8:15, "Owen DeLong" <o...@delong.com> escribió: On Aug 26, 2019, at 03:05 , JORDI PALET MARTINEZ <jordi.pa...@consulintel.es> wrote: Hi Javed, I don’t agree, let me explain why. The current process only talks about the meeting and the chairs have clearly indicated that they take in consideration the list and the confer. Anyone from the community that dislikes a consensus/non-consensus decision, could create a trouble even in courts, because we are accepting consensus from sources not documented in the PDP. Rewording it resolves the problem. Furthermore, the current process has not an “in-process” appeal procces. This will be ilegal in may legislations (may be only the AU applies, but considering that the community is “the entire Internet”, may be this may be declared illegal in another country where a member decides to claim for). The only way (actually) to appeal, will be going to the courts. We should not aim to that. We should have an internal way. While there is no appeal process, there are sufficient iterations of approval and ratification in the current process that I am not convinced an appeal process is necessary. I don’t agree on that. If today chairs decide that something is out-of-scope, nobody has a way to change that decision. There is no way the community will be able to discuss the policy proposal as a “policy proposal”, because the chairs don’t accept it. In the case of ARIN, there is a kind of appeal process with is the “petition process”. Here we don’t have that. And is the only region where we don’t have that. I really think is very bad not having it. I’m convinced the chairs always act on their best good faith and willingness, but this scheme, without a way for the community to oversee the chair’s decision is “per se” against the bottom-up approach. Just imagine if we have a set of chairs that aren’t really acting in good faith, but on personal interest (please understand is just an example, not saying at all it is the present case). I don’t think we even have a way to remove them. Calling out the (remote) possibility that some jurisdiction might have a problem with it is a red herring and absent actual legal doctrine within the APNIC service region, I think it’s a bit far fetched to put that argument forward. Agree, but we need to understand that for sure there is a jurisdiction. And in my knowledge (not being a lawyer), any process that doesn’t have an implicit appeal process has lot of chances to be defeated in *any* jurisdiction. It is much better to avoid that, right ? This is now even more relevant to be resolved, because by chance, the chairs have denied to accept one of the policy proposal that I’ve submited. They consider it out-of-scope, and my reading is that is in-scope (it has also been submitted and in-scope to RIPE, LACNIC and AFRINIC). I think their decision is wrong and this has many implications that we need to work out. The best avenue is having an “in-house” appeal process, of course. You’ve been wrong about what should be in-scope before. I won’t cite the specifics unless you insist, but you are more than welcome to discuss your concerns about it with I’m not talking here about any specific policy proposal, as said before, this happened by chance. The inclusion of the appeal process in this PDP update was done one year in advance this situation, so not related to it. Paul and/or the EC and I’m certain you will get an appropriate response. While it’s not a formal appeal process, I’m certain that if they agree with you that the co-chairs erred, they will discuss the situation with the co-chairs and come to an appropriate resolution. Agree, and I talked to Paul about it. If I recall correctly, he only suggested to go to the open forum, not him, not the EC. However, we don’t have time allocated for it. And furthermore, I don’t think it is savvy if this happens, that we must wait 6 months for discussing it in a meeting. If you read the PDP, there is no definition of the scope and there is a contradiction in the text (https://www.apnic.net/about-apnic/corporate-documents/documents/policy-development/development-process/), as it says: “Policy proposals are proposals which have been officially submitted for the consideration of the APNIC community …” and then “A formal proposal paper must be submitted to the SIG mailing list and to the SIG Chair”, while the *actual process* is sending to the chairs, so they decide if is being sent to the list or not! Should anyone ignore the actual process and just send the proposals to the list? Note that I didn’t knew, when I submitted the PDP update (which is a new version from a the previous year proposal), that one of my proposals will be considered by the chairs as out-of-scope. Clarification just so nobody believes that it is related to that rejection! Chairs can confirm that. I don’t think anyone is questioning your motives, Jordi. We all know that your heart is generally in the right place, even if we don’t agree with you about your desired actions. We all know that you like how things work in the RIPE region. I will say that I’m not as fond of the RIPE process as you are. I will also point out that general apathy is not Nope. This is not related at all to the RIPE process. What I’m saying is that the APNIC process has clear inconsistencies and we should fix them, the same we do policy proposals sometimes just to clarify text, not necessarily because there is a “big” problem but possible different interpretations of an existing text. necessarily a bad thing. It depends on the reasons for the apathy. If the apathy is because nothing bad enough to motivate people to action is happening, then apathy is not the worst possible outcome. If the apathy is because people feel disenfranchised and unable to make a difference, then the cause of the apathy must desperately be addressed with all due haste. I do not believe that people are disenfranchised in the APNIC region or that anything horrible is happening in the APNIC policy arena. I’m far less active on the APNIC list(s) than ARIN and AfriNIC. I’m more active in the ARIN region because it is my home region and because I (currently) have a leadership role there. I’m more active in AfriNIC because I believe there are more problems there and policy development there needs all the help it can get. I participate in APNIC when I feel I have something useful to contribute to the discussion. Otherwise, I mostly lurk. I’d probably watch LACNIC if I spoke better spanish. I’ve never actually subscribed to the RIPE PDP list. RIPE seems to be doing what RIPE does well enough without my contribution. Owen Regards, Jordi @jordipalet El 23/8/19 15:48, "Javed Khan" <sig-policy-boun...@lists.apnic.net en nombre de javedkha...@outlook.com> escribió: I do not support this proposal as I have complete trust in the current APNIC PDP and this community. Kind regards Javed Khan MSCE and CCSP From: sig-policy-boun...@lists.apnic.net <sig-policy-boun...@lists.apnic.net> on behalf of Sumon Ahmed Sabir <sasa...@gmail.com> Sent: Friday, 9 August 2019 2:13 AM To: Policy SIG <sig-pol...@apnic.net> Subject: [sig-policy] Version 4 of prop-126 PDP Update Dear SIG members A new version of the proposal "prop-126: PDP Update" has been sent to the Policy SIG for review. It will be presented at the Open Policy Meeting at APNIC 48 in Chiang Mai, Thailand on Thursday, 12 September 2019. Information about earlier versions is available from: https://www.apnic.net/community/policy/proposals/prop-126/ You are encouraged to express your views on the proposal: - Do you support or oppose the proposal? - Is there anything in the proposal that is not clear? - What changes could be made to this proposal to make it more effective? Please find the text of the proposal below. Kind Regards, Sumon, Bertrand, Ching-Heng APNIC Policy SIG Chairs ---------------------------------------------------------------------- prop-126-v004: PDP Update ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Proposer: Jordi Palet Martínez jordi.pa...@theipv6company.com 1. Problem Statement -------------------- With its requirement of face-to-face participation at the OPM, the current PDP might – at least partially – be the cause of the low levels of community participation in the process by using the policy mailing list. This proposal would allow an increased participation, by explicitly considering the comments in the list for the consensus determination. So, consensus would be determined balancing the mailing list and the forum, and would therefore increase community participation. Even if this is actually done by the chairs, it is not part of the actual PDP, and thus constitutes a very clear and explicit violation of the PDP and the risk is that anyone from the community could appeal any decision based on that. Finally, it completes the PDP by adding a simple mechanism for solving disagreements during an appeals phase and an improved definition of ‘consensus’, as well as a complete definition of the “consensus” and “last-call”. 2. Objective of policy change ----------------------------- To allow that consensus is determined formally looking at the opinions of community members that are not able to travel to the meetings and facilitating a simple method for appeals. 3. Situation in other regions ----------------------------- The PDP is different in the different RIRs. This proposal is similar to the RIPE PDP, possibly the region with the broadest participation in its policy proposal discussions, although there are certain differences such as the mandatory use of the mailing list and the meeting, which is more similar to the PDP at ARIN (another region with broad community participation). LACNIC has recently adopted a similar policy proposal with the same aims. 4. Proposed policy solution --------------------------- Current Text Step 2: Consensus at the OPM Consensus is defined as “general agreement” as observed by the Chair of the meeting. Consensus must be reached first at the SIG session and afterwards at the Member Meeting for the process to continue. If there is no consensus on a proposal at either of these forums, the SIG (either on the mailing list or at a future OPM) will discuss whether to amend the proposal or to withdraw it. New Text Step 2: Consensus Determination Consensus is defined as “rough consensus” as observed by the Chairs. Consensus is determined first considering the SIG mailing list, other electronic means, and the SIG session, and afterwards at the Member Meeting. If there is no consensus on a proposal, the authors can decide to withdraw it. Otherwise, the proposal will expire in six months, unless a new version is provided, restarting the discussions with the community. ================================================== Current Text Step 3: Discussion after the OPM Proposals that have reached consensus at the OPM and the AMM will be circulated on the appropriate SIG mailing list for a period. This is known as the “comment period”. The duration of the “comment period” will be not shorter than four weeks and not longer than eight weeks. The decision to extend more than four weeks, including the duration of the extension, will be determined at the sole discretion of the SIG Chair. New Text Step 3: Last-Call Proposals that have reached consensus at the OPM and the AMM will be circulated on the appropriate SIG mailing during four weeks. The purpose of the “last-call” is to provide the community with a brief and final opportunity to comment on the proposal, especially those who didn’t earlier. Consequently, during this period editorial comments may be submitted and, exceptionally, objections if any aspect is discovered that was not considered in the discussion prior to determining consensus. Any new objections must also be substantiated and must therefore not be based on opinions lacking a technical justification. =================================================== Current Text Step 4: Confirming consensus Consensus is assumed to continue unless there are substantial objections raised during the “comment period”. When the “comment period” has expired, the appropriate SIG Chair (and Co-chairs) will decide whether the discussions on the mailing list represent continued. If the Chair (and Co-chairs) observe that there are no “substantial objections” to the proposed policy, consensus is confirmed and the process continues as outlined below in Step 5. If it is observed that there have been “substantial objections” raised to the proposed policy, consensus is not confirmed and the proposal will not be implemented. The SIG will then discuss (either on the mailing list or in the SIG) whether to pursue the proposal or withdraw it. New Text Step 4: Confirming consensus In a maximum of one week, after the end of the “last-call”, the Chairs will confirm whether consensus is maintained and the process continues as outlined below in Step 5. If it is observed that there have been “new substantial objections” raised to the proposed policy, consensus is not confirmed and the proposal will not be implemented. The authors can decide to withdraw it, or provide a new version, following the discussions with the community. The proposal will expire in six months, unless a new version is provided. ==================================================== Appeals process In case of disagreement during the process, any member of the community must initially bring the matter to the mailing list for consideration by the Chairs. Alternately, if any member considers that the Chairs have violated the process or erred in their judgement, they may appeal their decision through the EC, which must decide the matter within a period of four weeks. Definition of “Rough Consensus” Achieving “rough consensus” does not mean that proposals are voted for and against, nor that the number of “yes's”, “no's” and “abstentions” – or even participants – are counted, but that the proposal has been discussed not only by its author(s) but also by other members of the community, regardless of their number, and that, after a period of discussion, all critical technical objections have been resolved. In general, this might coincide with a majority of members of the community in favor of the proposal, and with those who are against the proposal basing their objections on technical reasons as opposed to “subjective” reasons. In other words, low participation or participants who disagree for reasons that are not openly explained should not be considered a lack of consensus. Objections should not be measured by their number, but instead by their nature and quality within the context of a given proposal. For example, a member of the community whose opinion is against a proposal might receive many “emails” (virtual or real) in their support, yet the chairs might consider that the opinion has already been addressed and technically refuted during the debate; in this case, the chairs would ignore those expressions of support against the proposal. For information purposes, the definition of “consensus” used by the RIRs and the IETF is actually that of “rough consensus”, which allows better clarifying the goal in this context, given that “consensus” (Latin for agreement) might be interpreted as “agreed by al”’ (unanimity). More specifically, RFC7282, explains that “Rough consensus is achieved when all issues are addressed, but not necessarily accommodated.” Consequently, the use of “consensus” in the PDP, must be interpreted as “rough consensus”. 5. Advantages / Disadvantages ----------------------------- Advantages: Fulfilling the objectives above indicated and making sure that there is no formal discrimination with community members that aren’t able to travel. Disadvantages: None foreseen. 6. Impact on resource holders ----------------------------- None. 7. References ------------- http://www.lacnic.net/679/2/lacnic/policy-development-process https://www.ripe.net/publications/docs/ripe-710 * sig-policy: APNIC SIG on resource management policy * _______________________________________________ sig-policy mailing list sig-policy@lists.apnic.net https://mailman.apnic.net/mailman/listinfo/sig-policy ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.theipv6company.com The IPv6 Company This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. 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