Hi Fernando,
So your argument is that banning leasing actually helps smaller
companies in their quest for IPv4?
Are you aware that RIPE has allowed leasing for many years but is
still a functioning RIR whose IPv4 sale prices are not more expensive
despite the history of leasing there?
Can you reconcile that with your argument that leasing will raise
prices for both leasing and transfers?
Are you aware that it’s not always possible to get IPv4 blocks from
the company that is providing you with connectivity?
Regards,
Mike
*From:* Fernando Frediani <[email protected]>
*Sent:* Wednesday, September 7, 2022 11:27 AM
*To:* [email protected]
*Subject:* [sig-policy] Re: New version - prop-148: Clarification -
Leasing of Resources is not Acceptable
This is exactly the opposite.
Allowing IP leasing to happen more than just tottaly divert the
propose of IP assignments by RIRs it make it bad specially for smaller
companies as it increases the cost for both leasing and transfers in
long term. The cost of leasing is based on the transfer and if leasing
is allowed then transfer prices will always go up which makes it even
harder for smaller companies to go into the market.
Any form of IP leasing without a direct connection relationship to
provide a connectivity service makes it more expensive for smaller
companies to get IP addresses to operate.
Fernando
On 07/09/2022 11:15, Mike Burns wrote:
Hi Jordi,
It’s plain you feel that we should do all possible to raise the
price of IPv4 and make it unattainable for small business in the
vain hope that this will drive IPv6 adoption.
I don’t think making IPv4 more difficult to acquire is the job of
the RIR system.
You have not addressed the inability of smaller companies to
acquire necessary IPv4 blocks if you ban leasing.
Is that something you are comfortable with, in pursuit of the IPv6
grail?
It’s okay with you that this policy prevents small companies from
growing?
Regards,
Mike
*From:* JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via sig-policy
<[email protected]> <mailto:[email protected]>
*Sent:* Wednesday, September 7, 2022 10:11 AM
*To:* [email protected]
*Subject:* [sig-policy] Re: New version - prop-148: Clarification
- Leasing of Resources is not Acceptable
Actually, I must disagree …
If organizations having unused resources, they need to transfer
them or return them to the RIR. If prices keep going high, that
could encourage faster IPv6 adoption, then transfer prices will go
down, up to “no value”. It takes time, but it is just market.
Those that have more money, have more facilities to do a faster
transition and not bother about IPv4.
Regards,
Jordi
@jordipalet
El 7/9/22, 16:05, "Mike Burns" <[email protected]> escribió:
Hello,
Per Gaurav’s statement that “only those with millions of dollars
can think of getting ips”, this community should oppose this policy.
Because the only way small companies can afford to get ips today
is by leasing them. The same way the small company can’t afford
to purchase a big office building but instead rents an office.
Leasing is the only way to finance IPv4 acquisitions today. No
bank or other entity that I am aware of will do it. Purchasing
addresses requires full upfront payment, but leasing allow for
much smaller monthly payments.
If this community wants to ensure only the largest and richest
companies can acquire new addresses, ban leasing.
But if the community tries to ban something with such a large
business motivation behind it, it will find itself struggling
against a powerful foe.
And for what purpose do we punish the small businesses? Leasing
puts addresses in the hands of those who need them to build and
operate networks. Isn’t that the primary goal of the RIR system?
Regards,
Mike
El 2/9/22, 9:23, "Gaurav Kansal" <[email protected]> escribió:
Hello everyone,
In my opinion, even Trading of IPs (leave apart the lease for
making dollars) in the name of transfers must be stopped.
If organisation doesn’t need IPs , then those must be returned
back so that smaller organisations can get it from the RIR.
Currently, only the one which have millions of dollars can think
of getting IPs. In today’s scenario, no one can start the Data
Centre, ISP business without investing millions in IPs. Even
education and research org doesn’t have an option to get IPs from RIR.
This is like horse trading and isn’t a good practice for the
community as a whole.
Regards,
Gaurav Kansal
On 02-Sep-2022, at 12:20, [email protected] wrote:
Dear Team,
As Mr. Satoru, mentioned there are changes, but if carefully
implemented in phased manner, unauthorised leasing can be stopped.
For example in first phase, leasing among countries can be
stopped, if the owner company doesn't provide any services
beyond its home country. For example if a company in India
doesn't have any operation in Singapore or Japan , can't lease
resources to those companies in Singapore or Japan. This can
be verified by taking business registration documents of both
lease and lessor.
Once this is done same may be granularized at RIR level, where
in country like India, leasing can be restricted to the
licensed service area for service provider within their
designated service area.
This may stop majority of issues, barring few exceptions.
Some more brainstorming is required for better understanding
and precise implementation.
Regards,
Rajesh Panwala
For Smartlink Solutions Pvt Ltd
+91-9227886001
+91-9426110781
On Fri, Sep 2, 2022, 10:44 AM Tsurumaki, Satoru
<[email protected]> wrote:
Dear Colleagues,
I am Satoru Tsurumaki from Japan Open Policy Forum
Steering Team..
I would like to share key feedback in our community for
prop-148,
based on a meeting we organised on 29th Aug to discuss
these proposals.
Many participants support the intent of the proposal but
felt that
implementation would be challenging.
(comment details)
- It is undisputed that the current policy allows for the
distribution
of IP addresses according to the actual demand of one's own
organization or directly connected customers, and does
not allow for
the leasing of IP addresses.
- I think this proposal would be useful if the concept of
leasing is
accurately defined.
- Leasing IP addresses that damage the accuracy of whois
information
should not be allowed, but I find it difficult to implement.
Regards,
Satoru Tsurumaki / JPOPF Steering Team
2022年8月26日(金) 17:27 Shaila Sharmin
<[email protected]>:
>
> Dear SIG members,
>
> A new version of the proposal "prop-148-v002:
Clarification - Leasing of
> Resources is not Acceptable" has been sent to the Policy
SIG for review.
>
> Information about earlier versions is available from:
>
> http://www.apnic.net/policy/proposals/prop-148
>
> You are encouraged to express your views on the proposal:
>
> - Do you support or oppose the proposal?
> - Is there anything in the proposal that is not clear?
> - What changes could be made to this proposal to make
it more effective?
>
> Please find the text of the proposal below.
>
> Regards,
> Bertrand, Shaila, and Ching-Heng
> APNIC Policy SIG Chairs
>
>
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
> prop-148-v002: Clarification - Leasing of Resources is
not Acceptable
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Proposer: Jordi Palet Martinez
([email protected])
> Amrita Choudhury ([email protected])
> Fernando Frediani ([email protected])
>
>
> 1. Problem statement
> --------------------
> RIRs have been conceived to manage, allocate and assign
resources
> according to need, in such a way that a LIR/ISP has
addresses to be able
> to directly connect its customers based on justified
need. Addresses are
> not, therefore, a property with which to trade or do
business.
>
> When the justification of the need disappears or
changes, for whatever
> reasons, the expected thing would be to return said
addresses to the
> RIR, otherwise according to Section 4.1. (“The original
basis of the
> delegation remains valid”) and 4.1.2. (“Made for a
specific purpose that
> no longer exists, or based on information that is later
found to be
> false or incomplete”) of the policy manual, APNIC is not
enforced to
> renew the license. An alternative is to transfer these
resources using
> the appropriate transfer policy.
>
> If the leasing of addresses is authorized, contrary to
the original
> spirit of the policies and the very existence of the
RIRs, the link
> between connectivity and addresses disappears, which
also poses security
> problems, since, in the absence of connectivity, the
resource holder who
> has received the license to use the addresses does not
have immediate
> physical control to manage/filter them, which can cause
damage to the
> entire community.
>
> Therefore, it should be made explicit in the Policies
that the Internet
> Resources should not be leased “per se”, but only as
part of a direct
> connectivity service.
>
> The existing policies of APNIC are not explicit about
that, however
> current policies do not regard the leasing of addresses
as acceptable,
> if they are not an integral part of a connectivity service.
> Specifically, the justification of the need would not be
valid for those
> blocks of addresses whose purpose is not to directly
connect customers
> of an LIR/ISP, and consequently the renewal of the
annual license for
> the use of the addresses would not be valid either.
Sections 3.2.6.
> (Address ownership), 3.2.7. (Address stockpiling) and 3.2.8.
> (Reservations not supported) of the policy manual, are
keys on this
> issue, but an explicit clarification is required.
>
>
> 2. Objective of policy change
> -----------------------------
> Despite the fact that the intention in this regard
underlies the entire
> Policy Manual text and is thus applied to justify the
need for
> resources, this proposal makes this aspect explicit by
adding the
> appropriate clarifying text.
>
>
> 3. Situation in other regions
> -----------------------------
> In other RIRs, the leasing of addresses is not
authorized either and
> since it is not explicit in their policy manuals either,
this proposal
> will be presented as well.
>
> Nothing is currently mentioned in RIPE about this and it
is not
> acceptable as a justification of the need. In AFRINIC
and LACNIC, the
> staff has confirmed that address leasing is not
considered as valid for
> the justification. In ARIN it is not considered valid as
justification
> of need.
>
> A similar proposal is under discussion in LACNIC and ARIN.
>
>
> 4. Proposed policy solution
> ---------------------------
> 5.8. Leasing of Internet Number Resources
>
> In the case of Internet number resources delegated by
APNIC or an NIR,
> the justification of the need implies the need to use on
their own
> infrastructure and/or network connectivity services
provided directly to
> customers. As a result, any form of IP address leasing
is unacceptable,
> nor does it justify the need, if it is not part of a set
of services
> based, at the very least, on direct connectivity. Even
for networks that
> are not connected to the Internet, leasing of IP
addresses is not
> permitted, because such sites can request direct
assignments from APNIC
> or the relevant NIR and, in the case of IPv4, use
private addresses or
> arrange market transfers.
>
> APNIC may proactively investigate those cases and also
initiate the
> investigation in case of reports by means of a form,
email address or
> other means developed by APNIC.
>
> If any form of leasing, regardless of when the
delegation has been
> issued, is confirmed by an APNIC investigation, it will
be considered a
> policy violation and revocation may apply against any
account holders
> who are leasing or using them for any purposes not
specified in the
> initial request.
>
>
> 5. Advantages / Disadvantages
> -----------------------------
> Advantages:
> Fulfilling the objective above indicated and making the
policy clear.
>
> Disadvantages:
> None.
>
>
> 6. Impact on resource holders
> -----------------------------
> None.
>
>
> 7. References
> -------------
>
https://www.arin.net/participate/policy/proposals/2022/ARIN_prop_308_v2/
>
https://politicas.lacnic.net/politicas/detail/id/LAC-2022-2/language/en
> _______________________________________________
> sig-policy -
https://mailman.apnic.net/[email protected]/
> To unsubscribe send an email to
[email protected]
--
--
Satoru Tsurumaki
BBIX, Inc
_______________________________________________
sig-policy -
https://mailman.apnic.net/[email protected]/
To unsubscribe send an email to
[email protected]
_______________________________________________
sig-policy - https://mailman.apnic.net/[email protected]/
To unsubscribe send an email to [email protected]
<https://amritmahotsav.nic.in/>
_______________________________________________ sig-policy -
https://mailman.apnic.net/[email protected]/ To
unsubscribe send an email to [email protected]
**********************************************
IPv4 is over
Are you ready for the new Internet ?
http://www.theipv6company.com
The IPv6 Company
This electronic message contains information which may be
privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for
the exclusive use of the individual(s) named above and further
non-explicilty authorized disclosure, copying, distribution or use
of the contents of this information, even if partially, including
attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be considered a
criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware
that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents
of this information, even if partially, including attached files,
is strictly prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so
you must reply to the original sender to inform about this
communication and delete it.
**********************************************
IPv4 is over
Are you ready for the new Internet ?
http://www.theipv6company.com
The IPv6 Company
This electronic message contains information which may be
privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for
the exclusive use of the individual(s) named above and further
non-explicilty authorized disclosure, copying, distribution or use
of the contents of this information, even if partially, including
attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be considered a
criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware
that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents
of this information, even if partially, including attached files,
is strictly prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so
you must reply to the original sender to inform about this
communication and delete it.
_______________________________________________
sig-policy -https://mailman.apnic.net/[email protected]/
To unsubscribe send an email [email protected]
