This is a coincidence. I was just listening to their interview on Hearsay
Culture on my drive to the office today morning. The podcast is at:

http://cyberlaw.stanford.edu/podcasts/20100804_Levine_119_Penalver.mp3

For those interested in IP and related issues, I'd heartily recommend the
excellent podcasts at:

http://www.hearsayculture.com/

These interviews are around 30 minutes each. Perfect for my daily commute.

Venky


On Wed, Dec 1, 2010 at 9:11 AM, Udhay Shankar N <[email protected]> wrote:

> Something of interest to the lawyers, and those who play them on the
> internet.
>
> This touches upon an interest of mine. I have long felt that the law
> relating to "intellectual property" is deeply broken, and needs
> significant rebuilding.
>
> One of the authors, Sonia Katyal, is a friend, and is in fact on this
> list, though in deepest lurkspace. Let's see if I can draw her out to
> post on this...
>
> Thoughts from others?
>
> Udhay
>
>
> http://www.concurringopinions.com/archives/2010/09/book-review-penalver-katyals-property-outlaws.html
>
> Book Review: Peñalver & Katyal’s Property Outlaws
> posted by Gordon Hull
>
> Eduardo M. Peñalver & Sonia K. Katyal, Property Outlaws: How Squatters,
> Pirates, and Protesters Improve the Law of Ownership (Yale University
> Press 2010).
>
> As they open one of the late chapters in their Property Outlaws, Eduardo
> Moisés Peñalver and Sonia K. Katyal speak of a “conflicting divergence”
> in intellectual property law: “is a pirate an outlaw or a freedom
> fighter? The law asks, unable to offer a comprehensive answer” (212).
> Property Outlaws is an ambitious and rigorously argued explanation of
> why this ambiguity is a good thing.  The book also responds to a
> pressing problem.  Intellectual property law, as it is currently
> developing under intense pressure by property owners, is moving rapidly
> toward the “outlaw” answer, and in this development, Peñalver and Katyal
> see cause for concern.  It is not, as they emphasize, that all acts of
> trespass are good things, or that most of the college students on Bit
> Torrent have any ideal in mind more elevated than seeing movies for
> free.  It’s that, when one takes a step back and looks at the
> development of property law more generally, “property outlaws” have
> served a very important social function in pushing property law, which
> tends to ossify, in the direction of needed reforms that reflect
> shifting social norms, pressing issues of social justice, or other
> normatively important concerns.  To illustrate this larger point, they
> embed a discussion of the development of intellectual property law in an
> innovative account of the social dynamics of property law more generally.
>
> Property Outlaws thus makes the descriptive and normative case for what
> one might call a dialectical understanding of the development of
> property.  Specifically, “the apparent stability and order provided by
> property law owes much to the destabilizing role of the lawbreaker in
> occasionally forcing needed reform and in generating a series of
> important legal shifts along the way” (11).  The descriptive case is met
> by showing a series of examples where deliberate disobedience of
> property regimes has been a significant catalyst in generating legal
> reform.  Peñalver and Katyal identify two kinds of property outlaw.  The
> first, the “expressive” outlaw, acts to protest the current legal
> system, but not to obtain property for herself.  The protestors of the
> Greensboro lunch counter sit-ins, whose trespassing was a major catalyst
> to the civil rights movement, were paradigmatic expressive outlaws.  The
> second, “acquisitive” outlaw violates others’ property rights, and
> expects to gain personally.  The case for acquisitive outlaws is harder
> to make because of their “profit motive,” but urban squatters in
> developing countries seem both to have available a necessity defense and
> to point to a widespread social justice problem.
>
> The situation with intellectual property law is somewhat different,
> because IP law is considerably less specific than real property law: not
> only is the domain of the entitlement more ambiguous (which parts of the
> work are copyrighted?), but so is its scope (is that fair use?).
> Peñalver and Katyal thus propose that intellectual property violators
> can sometimes be seen as outlaws, but sometimes as “altlaws,” whose
> “conduct at least arguably falls within the boundaries of legality and,
> at the same time, who do[] not reject out of hand the concept of
> intellectual property” (77).  Citing Robert Cover, Peñalver and Katyal
> propose that the altlaw is engaged in an attempt to “convert legal
> interpretation into legal meaning,” i.e., to get the law to recognize
> her interpretation as correct.  Altlaws can also be expressive or
> acquisitive.  An example of the former is the Swarthmore students who
> defied cease and desist letters to publicize embarrassing internal
> documents that cast serious doubt on the integrity of Diebold’s voting
> machines.  An example of the latter is the revolt in several developing
> countries against the high prices for AIDS anti-retroviral drugs.
> Despite apocalyptic warnings from the pharmaceutical industry, those
> countries insist they respect patent rights generally, and that they are
> using existing TRIPS provisions to obtain lifesaving medicines in the
> face of a public health catastrophe.
>
> Peñalver and Katyal are not just interested in the fact of property
> outlaws.  They are also interested in showing that “certain categories
> of property outlaws are less culpable … than ordinary criminals” (126).
>  From a utilitarian perspective, not all outlaw behavior should be
> deterred, because property outlaws can generate socially useful
> information (that many individuals find a property regime unjust) and
> useful redistribution (as, for example, in cases of adverse possession).
>  Deontologically, property outlaws can seem less culpable than other
> kinds of criminals both because their behavior does not directly injure
> other people, and because breaking unjust laws is at least less
> blameworthy than breaking other laws, if not justified outright.  These
> arguments apply most easily to expressive outlaws, since they do not
> intend to gain personally from their actions.  But even in the case of
> acquisitive outlaws, there are good reasons to extend necessity defenses
> and to excuse or limit culpability for “self-help beyond the extreme
> case of, say, immanent starvation” (136).
>
> None of this is to say that outlaw behavior should be legalized: not
> only is maintaining the property system itself important, but expressive
> outlaw behavior would lose its expressive value if it were legalized
> (139).  Rather, the point is to notice that legislative responses to
> outlaw behavior tend to try to stamp it out by ratcheting up penalties.
>  However, against a normative background urging reduced culpability,
> that approach is at least sometimes exactly backwards: greater social
> benefit would be obtained by “ratify[ing] widespread property
> disobedience through targeted legal accommodation” (145).  To be sure,
> such accommodation is not always socially optimal – in the case of a
> highly unjust property distribution, changes in the tax code are
> generally more efficient than legal rules – but that does not mean that
> legal accommodation is worse than the status quo.
>
> Peñalver and Katyal devote the last section of the book to responses to
> intellectual property outlaws.  Here, one might think, the case for
> targeted accommodation might be strongest: intellectual property is
> legally underspecified compared to real property; the IP system has
> always included specific provisions (limited durations, fair use, etc.)
> for the public good; and property altlaws can in any case colorably
> claim to be upholding the law, not violating it, and so fears of a
> general decline in respect for the law seem most distant.
> Unfortunately, the tendency in IP law is the opposite: to so severely
> penalize behavior found to be illegal that no rational agent could risk
> such a result.  Property owners correctly claim that technology has made
> infringement easier, but Peñalver and Katyal remind us that it has also
> made enforcement easier by allowing continual surveillance of infringing
> actions and by enabling various digital rights management schemes that
> make copying against the owner’s wishes physically difficult.  These
> combine with legal developments, such as a general prohibition on
> technologies that break copy protection schemes (§1201 of the DMCA) and
> a decline in the availability of fair use defenses.  Meanwhile,
> intellectual property owners frequently overclaim both the scope and
> domain of their rights and launch public relations campaigns that
> declare all those who act against their wishes “pirates.”  These factors
> add up.  For example, even traditional fair use defenses become
> difficult to muster because of the very high cost not just of losing,
> but of litigating.  Peñalver and Katyal thus propose to reduce the
> stakes for those claiming fair use by reducing penalties for copyright
> violation, and by penalizing property owners for overclaims, as for
> example by resuscitating such doctrines as copyright misuse..
>
> Property Outlaws thus both makes a substantial intervention in property
> theory, and proposes a series of practical interventions to better
> calibrate the legal regime to appropriate the benefits of property
> outlaw behavior.  In the remainder of this review, I’d like to remark
> briefly on three implications of their work.  First, in mounting a
> defense of the property outlaw, Peñalver and Katyal will no doubt be
> accused of anarchism and encouraging disrespect for the law.  This
> accusation will be completely unjust.  They are acutely aware of the
> treacherous terrain they are negotiating; they note that property law is
> already regarded as more violable than other forms of law (30-2); and
> they are very careful to point out that accommodations for outlaws
> should be both targeted and limited.  Indeed, they specifically bracket
> from consideration the arguments of those who would do away with
> intellectual property entirely (89).  They also note that outlaw
> behavior, in its own way, affirms the rule of law: protestors accept and
> even plan on being arrested (141-2).  More broadly, Peñalver and Katyal
> argue that property regimes tend to be too stable, lagging behind social
> norms, and that the status quo, with its overclaimed intellectual
> property rights, itself ends up undermining respect for the law:
> “excessive assertions of ownership can end up being self-defeating
> insofar as they undermine the public’s identification with property
> norms and increase the public’s tendency to identify with opponents of
> those norms” (181).  In other words, respect for IP law is declining
> now; targeted accommodations of outlaws are better than allowing that
> decline to continue.
>
> Second, many of the stories that Peñalver and Katyal tell will be
> familiar, particularly to those who work in property law and theory –
> the Greensboro lunch counter sit-ins, developing nations’ pushback
> against the high price of anti-retroviral drugs, the efforts to
> publicize flaws in Diebold’s voting machines, the legal case against
> 2600.com for linking to code that bypassed the DVD copy control system,
> and others of their examples – are all well-known.  This, however, is
> the point.  Peñalver and Katyal tell these stories well, and by telling
> them all in the same book, they present a compelling picture that
> something is not right in the law’s approach to IP outlaws, and
> especially not in its approach to IP altlaws.  Most people intuitively
> think the Greensboro protesters got something right.  If their behavior
> is analogous to that of IP outlaws or altlaws, then our intuitions about
> IP out/altlaws may need to be reset.  In other words, the book performs
> useful rhetorical labor in that it pushes back against the universal
> application of the “pirate” label.  This pushback also performs useful
> argumentative work; if one is to treat like cases alike, then it matters
> a lot whether a fair use defendant is more like a lunch counter
> protestor or a high seas pirate.  Sometimes the defendant will be a
> pirate.  But not always.
>
> Finally, Peñalver and Katyal devote a few pages near the end of their
> text to the proposed Google Books settlement, which “is, in many ways,
> the worst of all possible worlds” (205).  By abandoning fair use claims
> and instead licensing orphan works, “Google ratifies the content owners’
> most expansive proprietary claims.” (205).  Google then gets a monopoly
> license, which is extended by the magic of class action to all orphan
> works whose owners don’t opt-out in time.  Of course, since the works in
> question are orphan, it is highly unlikely that very many owners will
> show up to opt-out.  Google thus ends up with a de facto monopoly
> license, a state of affairs that Peñalver and Katyal argue derives
> directly from “the absence of a doctrine like abandonment in copyright
> to provide a clear and safe harbor to downstream appropriators of unused
> and apparently unwanted intellectual property” (206).  Whatever the
> ultimate merits of their argument, this is a good example of the sorts
> of policy-thinking enabled by Property Outlaws.  On the face of it, the
> Google settlement appears to enable public access to works while
> preserving the rule of law.  However, a statutory protection for the
> property outlaw who can claim that the work(s) in question were
> abandoned and ought to revert to the public domain might do a better job
> of serving the values that the rule of law purports to uphold.
>
> _____________________________________________________________________
>
> Gordon Hull is a professor of philosophy at the University of North
> Carolina Charlotte.
>
>  September 12, 2010 at 9:37 pm
> --
> ((Udhay Shankar N)) ((udhay @ pobox.com)) ((www.digeratus.com))
>
>

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