On Sun, 19 Oct 2008 22:07:24 -5 "M. G. Devour" <[email protected]> wrote:
> Hi group, Indi, Ken, > > The current debate (happily, I can still use that word to describe > the discussion; thank you for staying civil, guys...) about alleged > "absolute statements" and "proof" seems to have originated in a few > sentences posted days ago in the "blue moons revisited" thread: > > Indi wrote: > > Typically, if you have real CS (i.e. *not* ionic silver) there will > > be a small amount of ionic silver. > > This can be mostly eliminated by exposure to sunlight though. > > To which Ken replied: > > How would this be so? > > > > I've left ionic silver on a sunny window sill for as long as 5 > > years and it was still ionic and unchanged. > > This was met with Indi's request for methodology (Ken: Tyndal and EC) > and a lengthy discussion of why this isn't good enough, standards of > evidence and proof and criticisms of alleged "absolute" statements > and their effects on the CS community's credibility. > > After reading far too many posts, I saw the following which I think > is quite significant: > > Indi wrote: > > I mentioned getting rid of ions by allowing solution to sit in the > > sun. I also never claimed to have verified this with > > instrumentation, just pointed out that according to what I know, > > that should do it (I leave the lid off for speedier results, in > > case you were wondering). Ions are unstable; it doesn't matter > > which element we're discussing. They will react with other > > compounds at their first opportunity. So yes, I am assuming my > > method to be sufficient. But, I don't think I ever claimed > > otherwise. > > So, let me see if I've got this right, Indi? Earlier you made the > "absolute statement" that: > > "This can be mostly eliminated by exposure to sunlight though." > > You didn't say "I believe that..." or "This might be mostly > eliminated..." You just made the unqualified statement. Saying "This > can be..." seems to be prescriptive, as if you "know" that exposure > to sunlight will (mostly) eliminate the ionic portion. > > Yet you now say that you have not "veified this with instrumentation" > and that "according to what I know, that should do it?" > Yes you are correct on that, I should have said "I believe", or "according to what I've learned", something to qualify that statement. Thanks for bringing it to my attention. > Beyond this admission you also mention that you "leave the lid off > for speedier results." > > This all raises a couple of issues. First off, what "results" are you > even talking about? If you're not doing measurements, how do you > support this assertion of yours that you're eliminating the ionic > portion from your "real CS?" > Correct, I should have said, "according to what I have learned, exposing the solution to direct sunlight and leaving it uncovered should drastically reduce the ionic content." > Next, if you leave the lid off you no longer have a closed system. > Distilled water (and your CS), will absorb carbon dioxide from the > air and form (I think it is...) carbolic acid. This process is > easily detected by the rise in conductivity you can measure in DW in > an open container over a period of hours or days. > > This changes the pH, adds another ion to the mix, and basically all > bets are off. > Yes well, the idea that we actually make containers which contain only H2O and silver is a misconception, as you yourself have just pointed out. > Of course, detailed elemental analysis will be needed to confirm the > species present, but this work has been done elsewhere and ought to > be readily available in the literature if you have any doubts that it > happens. > > So I guess I have to turn this around on you, Indi. Instead of > criticizing Ken for not properly qualifying and detailing the basis > for all his observations of experiments he's actually *done,* why not > answer his question, instead? > > Ken wrote: > > How would this be so? > > If you've no answer better than "according to what I know, that > should do it," I suggest you yield the point. > As I said, without proper chemical analysis one cannot be sure of the exact content, and it is exceedingly unlikely that what we make to start with is pure H2O and silver only, or that the solution stored in simple jars will remain unchanged for very long. That is my point, and I certainly cannot yield it, I'd be lying. Anyway, thanks for pointing out my misstatements. I will be more careful about that in the future. Not sure if you read the whole discussion though, as there was a lot of email I never got the last couple of days and I have no way of knowing if all the email I sent got through. I think it was Comcast's fault, but am not sure... Cheers, indi -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: [email protected] Address Off-Topic messages to: [email protected] The Silver List and Off Topic List archives are currently down... List maintainer: Mike Devour <[email protected]>
