Excellent info. Nothing like looking in the horses's mouth and counting the teeth....
James Osbourne Holmes [email protected] -----Original Message----- From: Ivan Anderson [SMTP:[email protected]] Sent: Thursday, October 28, 1999 5:23 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: CS>Colloid? was baking soda Well James, I reckon fantasy and speculation to be the hallmark of the scientific inquiry and invention. And why would I need to answer these questions if no one asks them, thus improving my own data base. As to Ag clusters, I too have the same objection, but conclude the opposite to you I think. I believe the clusters to consist of Ag+ ions, sharing a deficit of electrons. My Ion Selective Electrode will not measure the activity of any element other than silver (excepting sulphide) and only then if the silver has a positive charge. As my ISE results correlate well with total silver assay (and with a conductivity meter I might add), I conclude the sols I have measured are indeed composed of silver ion clusters, within the margin of error etc. Cheers, Ivan. ----- Original Message ----- From: James Osbourne, Holmes <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Thursday, 28 October 1999 05:12 Subject: RE: CS>Colloid? was baking soda > Hi Sam, Ivan, et al > > Thanks for the detail Ivan. I must study your posts carefully, they are > rich with info. > > Remember, the micelle bit was prefaced with "Pure Speculation". Maybe > fantasy would be better. But I still have some sort of unconscious > objection to a cluster of Ag with only one of them short an electron. > > But, onward... > > James Osbourne Holmes > [email protected] > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Ivan Anderson [SMTP:[email protected]] > Sent: Wednesday, October 27, 1999 6:01 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: CS>Colloid? was baking soda > > Sam, > > James is correct...and psychic. > > Oxidation is the removal of electrons. Reduction is the gaining > of electrons. > A redox reaction is a two way street (most interactions of matter > involve redox reactions)... that which is oxidised looses an > electron, that which does the oxidising is reduced and gains that > electron. The apparent contradiction in terms comes about because > at the time when these reactions were described the electron was > not known. What was described was the gain and loss of the > positive charge. Hence reduction is the gaining of a negatively > charged electron... and the REDUCTION of positive charge. > > The term oxidation comes about because the reaction it describes was > first observed with oxygen. > > There are four or five oxides of silver, but all are unstable... the > most stable being Ag2O which decomposes upon mild heating. > Ag+ is actually quite a strong oxidising agent. > > James writes: > > These processes take place with electrons of the atoms outer shells. > The > > charges present are called the valence of the atom or ion. It is > not > > clear to myself how the positive charge on a cluster of silver atoms > > originates, but I don't think it is the valence charge of a single > Ag atom > > which is a part of the cluster. > > I'm not sure why you have trouble with this. > Do you believe that electrons are stripped from silver atoms at the > anode? > As noted above a 'positive' charge is really a less negative charge, > its origin being that a silver particle that has lost one or more > electrons is less negative than one that has all its electrons, and is > therefore 'positively' charged. The physical chemistry of the > transition metals (silver is one) is not fully understood, but it > seems they can loose electrons from inner shells and exist with > 'positive holes' in their electron cloud, and this is thought to be > the reason for the unusual properties of these elements. The fact is > that groups of ions do exist together as clusters and in deed > particles of the same type with similar charges can be drawn together. > > Regarding H+. It is thought that the electron deficiency is passed > from water molecule to water molecule, explaining why experimental > results for the mobility of H+ ions far exceeds its possible motion. > There is no reason that I know of to believe it becomes trapped as a > static H3O- complex ion, if the silver atoms have no charge, why would > they be involved in a micelle of water molecules in the first place. > > Would it hook up with some oxidising (reducing?) hussy? Only if they > bumped in the night with the right attitude. > > Sure, if that joker can choke back the laughter and give us the low > down of metallic sol chemistry he can have your eternal gratitude and > my mickey mouse watch. > > 'Chaos reigns...my work here is done.' > Ivan. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: James Osbourne, Holmes <[email protected]> > To: <[email protected]> > Sent: Wednesday, 27 October 1999 12:32 > Subject: RE: CS>Colloid? was baking soda > > > > Yes, Sam, there is an argument with that, > > > > and, I predict you will hear from Ivan shortly... > > > > Oxidation and reduction always occur together. An electron > > donator---almost always a metal---is called a reducing agent and is > said to > > be oxidized when it donates the -e. The electron receptor is called > the > > oxidizing agent, and in the process is said to be reduced. The > process is > > reversible under some conditions. I think there is some historical > > connection with oxygen, which is certainly an oxidizing agent. What > you > > are describing is the creation of silver oxide, not a charged > colloidal > > particle. > > > > These processes take place with electrons of the atoms outer shells. > The > > charges present are called the valence of the atom or ion. It is > not > > clear to myself how the positive charge on a cluster of silver atoms > > originates, but I don't think it is the valence charge of a single > Ag atom > > which is a part of the cluster. > > > > There is no such thing as a free proton in an aqueous solution, as a > > hydrogen atom missing its electron; a nude proton bobbing around > with its > > plus hanging out. Instead, the h+ gets involved with a water > molecule to > > become H30+. > > > > Now, pure speculation: Or, is it possible that it gets 'associated' > with a > > cluster of Ag? Trapped inside a micelle with a bunch of negative > ends of > > some water structure? Data, are you there..., talk to me... > > > > If it were a missing electron, would not the Ag atom hitch up with > some > > passing oxidizing agent hussy? > > > > This issue, the cause of the charge, is the source of much > discussion, and > > even some small amount of contention on this list. > > > > There must be someone lurking out there who is who knows, and is > sitting > > back yucking as we founder about with these rube questions. > > > > Where is Robert Hunter when we need him the most.... > > > > James Osbourne Holmes > > [email protected] > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Sam Earle [SMTP:[email protected]] > > Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 1999 1:53 PM > > To: [email protected] > > Subject: Re: CS>Colloid? was baking soda > > > > >Positively charged silver particles are already oxidised (lost an > > >electron). > > > > I've seen this said several times, and at the risk of having my ears > boxed > > by the real scientists on the list, I have to say it looks like > nonsense. > > The loss of an electron gives a positive charge. That's not > oxidation. > > Oxidation is picking up an oxygen atom and thus becoming part of a > > compound -- an oxide. > > > > Any argument with that? > > > > Sam > > > > > > > > -- > > The silver-list is a moderated forum for discussion of colloidal > silver. > > > > To join or quit silver-list or silver-digest send an e-mail message > to: > > [email protected] -or- > [email protected] > > with the word subscribe or unsubscribe in the SUBJECT line. > > > > To post, address your message to: [email protected] > > > > List maintainer: Mike Devour <[email protected]> > > >
