----- Original Message ----- From: "coyote" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Monday, 10 April 2000 03:17 Subject: CS>long and winding oxides and how to make strong clear LVDC CS
Dear Ken, I hope you don't mind me saying this, but you seem to display the very same adherence to dogma that you suspect others of, that is, clinging to a belief either through ignorance or bloody mindedness. How can we have a serious discussion if you do not know the meaning of the terms you use! > > To my limited understanding, a silver ion is elemental metallic silver with an added electron giving it a positive charge. It normally has a valency of +1 therefore will tend to compound with other elements with a negative valence such as oxygen [O, -2]. *Yes, a silver ion is an elemental silver atom LESS one or more electrons and as such is no longer elemental silver. There is very little dissolved oxygen in the body of distilled water, <3ppm. O2(gas) will NOT react with elemental silver. O2(gas) is a neutral molecule. > > It is reasonable to me that the added electron of the ionic form will make that elemental silver particle even more reactive with an atom of negative valence such as oxygen forming perhaps any or all of the three possible oxides of silver which may carry different color ranges beside pure black. [I find no reference to this so it's a supposition but is supported by observation of oxide deposit formation under electrically charged conditions] *Oxygen does not exist as a single free O(-1 or-2) atom in water. There may be some formation of silver oxide at the anode but this is negligeable. > > Theory: Formation of oxide deposits depends upon the interrelationship of oxygen bubbles forming on the negative electrode [varies with vapor pressure and surface tension of the water at various temeratures which also determines bubble size and coherent ability] where the smaller bubbles have greater available surface area to form oxides, oxygen dissolved in the water [both normal airborne oxygen and ozone from ozonation purification process] and the presence of elemental ionic silver...coupled with decreasing electrical activity that varies with distance due to accumulated resistance in the water. *See above regarding O2(gas). There is no electrical activity in the water other than at the electrode/water interface. > > On the positive hydrogen emmitting pole, high vapor pressure in warm water can result in formation of large cohesive and adhesive hydrogen bubbles that trap silver ions on their surface tension...the inside surface of the bubble... that transfer to the surface tension of the water when that pole is removed making a gray floater. These bubbles also seem to insulate the pole and slow the ellectrical activity down to near nothing. > Hydrogen has a + valence as does the silver ion. They cannot combine nor can the ion readily penetrate the surface tension of the bubble. *Anode, positive electrode, oxidising, O2(gas) production, Ag+ production. Cathode, negative electrode, reducing, H2(gas) production, Ag+ reduction to Ag elemental silver. > Oxidation: Oxidation is where an element or substance combines with oxygen to form another compound. An oxidized element is no longer in it's elemental form but is an oxide compound of that element or IOW that element compounded with oxygen to form an oxide [or dioxide or trioxide etc depending on how many oxygen atoms it's valence will 'hold'] The normal oxide of silver would be Ag2O because silver has a valence of +1 and oxygen has a valence of -2, however, under electrolytic conditions, silver can form 1 or 2 other oxides for a total of three as per a previous post...one of which is, 'possibly', as a result of silver hydroxide formation going further down the reaction chain and losing its hydrogen. [I don't know for sure exactly what happens but it's possible that there's a voltage varience involved and voltage does vary or 'drop' with increasing resistance...and resistance does increase with distance through a resi stive medium such as water] *Wrong! Oxidation, the process of removing an electron so as to make an element or compound more positive. Whether two elements combine depends on the electronegativity of the elements and the Gibbs free energy sum. As stated above, the only electrochemical reactions in a solution occur at the electrode/solute interface. Electrical conduction in a solution relies entirely upon the passage of ions from one electrode to the other. There is no electron travel other than those which are attached to ions. > > There is a maximum ionic crystal size involved here too. For silver, it is .97 angstroms. The reading of what this means is confusing to me but I gather [and may be mistaken] that an ion larger than that can be formed but has a reactive radius greater than a maximum stable radius of .97 angstroms, therefore will instantly compound with any available element that has an opposite valence such as oxygen. This tells me that it's possible to have a larger than .97 particle but it's not 100% ionic, nor is it pure silver...but is.. a partially oxidized silver particle or a silver ion crystal of .97 angstroms with a silver oxide molecule or two hanging onto it. *The ionic radius of Ag+ is 1.29 A which is close to your measurement, and represents one atom. The rest of the statement is mistaken supposition in my opinion. Silver ions will form stable colloid crystals, of various sizes (and hence colours) which become solvated with water (surrounded by a water micelle) and so resist the approach of negatively charged molecules or ions. > This seems to be a sort of confirmation that: > If high currents blast off larger ion clusters, these larger clusters will readily [partially] oxidize. The oxides have a color. Therefore, particle size does have something to do with color, BUT, the color is due to pigmentation from oxides not refraction. [Colors of pigments do have reflective properties due to light frequency absorption] And, we're no longer talking about pure silver ion clusters. Also, if the electrical pressure is great enough, they will blast these partially oxidizing particles straight into suspension. *Molecules do not 'have' pigments, their colour depends soley on the reflection, refraction, absorption and emmitance of light. This is directly related to the particle size as proved in previous posts. YOU are no longer talking about pure silver ion clusters, as if that is a fact! Look at carbon... Carbon black is a powdery substance which absorbs light with no reflectance or emission in the visible spectrum, hence it looks black. However sugar, which is a large molecule containing many carbon atoms, when dissolved in water is colourless. > Observation: When running CS generator at 6ma, the water quickly turns brownish and the "ion" cloud has a brownish tinge. This seems to correlate with observations of oxide color spread when running at .7 ma where current density in volt amps is greater on the negative oxygen emmiting pole and is reduced by distance through the resistive medium [water] where the lighter oxide deposit is yellow. When running at or around 2 ma, the predominant color is light yellow and gets darker as the amperage increases. The longer it runs at any particular current, the more intense the color but the color remains the same color. > Note: I have never gotten a color change in the water when running under .6 ma. and the ion cloud is always white. *This is entirely consistant with the theory that higher currents net larger silver particles. > Why does the color stick to the glass after storing for a few weeks? [It really does] > Theory: The partially oxidized particles being under brownian motion are heavier than and carry less charge than the smaller pure silver ion crystals. Therefore, they have greater inertia upon impact with the container and literally impact with great enough force to adhere themselves onto the glass. > Note: Hydrogen peroxide removes the color layer readily. [No clear idea why] *Again, one does not need to assume the presence of silver oxide for this to be true. Hydrgen peroxide removes this deposit, because it is elemental silver, and so is able to supply an electron to the bound O(-1) ion so that it may become O(-2) ion (which is oxygens most stable ion), which then combine to form O2(gas). In doing so it has disassociated the metalic silver by oxidation (removed electrons) and formed Ag+ ions which can then be measured. > > > Observation: Oxide deposits, when not stirred/agitated into the mix by thermal currents or excessive voltage/current pressures tends to deposit along the bottom of the container with the darkest black being under the negative pole and the lightest yellow forming under the positive pole and a range in between. These deposits, having had thier charges neutralized by componding, stick firmly to the glass if given a chance..that is...aren't kept agitated and suspended mechanically, electrically [by electrical pressures] or thermally [thermal water currents] > Silver ions, if left undisturbed, also follow much the same pathways as the oxides and being juxtaposed to the forming oxides, some of them can lose their charge and stick to the glass as well, forming a silvery coating that's quite difficult to remove. [plate out] The ions are smaller and lighter than the oxides and so tend to travel higher and wider than the oxide trail, again, if not excessivly agitated. The plate out occures to the sides of the oxide trail. *Oxides are not necessary to explain the above. > In conclusion according to observation and [my] theory: > To make clear and potent CS, run at a controlled current under 1 MA in distilled water at a temperature decreasing from 100+\- deg or increasing to 100+\- deg by applying a tiny heat source under the container. This induces a small thermal current that keeps the ion cloud moving but does not disturb the heavier oxides. They will stick to the rod or the glass of the container. > To reduce oxide load, limit the available dissolved oxygen by heating and/or venting the water. Some oxides will still form, but they will mostly be limited to and stuck firmly to the rod and easily removed. There will be virtually none in the sol. > The low current will prevent partial oxidation of silver ion crystals because they will be emmited below the .97 angstrom diameter treshhold. > But, this being a delicate low pressure process, it tends to go into equiliblium and nearly stop, sometimes locking ions up inside hydrogen bubbles.. Solution: remove and clean all componants including the water [pour into clean container temporarily] when no ion cloud activity is seen or after about an hour, then reassemble [including the previous water] and continue. A quite gratifying pure white ion cloud will then form. *The fact that you can't 'see' the cloud does not mean the reaction has stopped, it just means the particles involved are too small to see. *Further proof that what I have said is true... that there is little if any silver oxide in coloured solutions, can be found in the fact that my Ion Selective Electrode test equipement measures the activity of silver ions only. It does not measure the activity of any other ion (except sulphide) or compound. When the results of an (ISE) reading of coloured CS (as produced by myself, others may have elemental particle inclusion) is compared to the Atomic Absorption (AA) test result (which measures total silver content, regardless of ionic nature or compound) the results match to within the margin of error! > k...@czen aka KD'C Ivan. -- The silver-list is a moderated forum for discussion of colloidal silver. To join or quit silver-list or silver-digest send an e-mail message to: [email protected] -or- [email protected] with the word subscribe or unsubscribe in the SUBJECT line. To post, address your message to: [email protected] Silver-list archive: http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/index.html List maintainer: Mike Devour <[email protected]>
