In a message dated 11/27/00 0:00:57 AM EST, [email protected] writes: << Subj: Re: CS>Production of Silver Chloride at pH 2 Date: 11/27/00 0:00:57 AM EST From: [email protected] (Ivan Anderson) Reply-to: [email protected] To: [email protected] ----- Original Message ----- From: <[email protected]> > In a message dated 11/25/00 5:52:58 AM EST, [email protected] writes: > > > Hi Roger, > > I am not entirely clear what happens to CS in the digestive tract, I > have trouble finding reliable information...more work to be done. I am > still of the view that only Ag ions can pass into the blood stream. The picture becomes clearer each time I answer your questions, Roger. > The solubility constant of AgCl (Ksp) = 1.8 x 10^-10 > When concentration [Ag+] = [Cl-] > > Ivan: That's an entirely arbitrary assumption for which there is probably no > evidence. Roger, Perhaps not, but then that would make all such solubility constants arbitrary, no?
Ivan: I think you missed what I was saying: The Solubility Constant is NOT arbitrary, it's the setting of [Ag+] = [Cl-] that is arbitrary. There is probably no evidence behind THAT assumption. > then [Ag] dissolved = 1.34 x 10^-5 M > > Ksp = [Ag+][Cl-] > > 10.8ppm CS contains 1.0 x 10^-5 M so that is at the limit of solubility > with an equivalent amount of Cl-. > > Ivan: Again, a conclusion based on an entirely arbitrary assumption. The text book Ksp is all I have. Ivan: See above. I was NOT talking about using the Ksp to make your calculations although Ksp data is usually given for pH7 not other pH values. I believe you are using a stomach pH of 2 to make your calculations. > Higher concentrations of Cl- (product) gives higher concentration of the > reactant (AgCl), known as the common ion effect. > > Ivan: I think you are a might confused here. There is probably no > concentration of undissociated MOLECULAR AgCl to speak of. When the product > of the concentrations of Ag+ and Cl- reach the solubility product of AgCl > (for a given pH) AgCl CRYSTALS form. Also, the common ion effect is > exemplified when, say, NaCl is added. In this case, the Ag+ concentration > decreases in proportion to the increase of Cl- concentration. Roger, with a fixed amount of silver, the concentration of the silver in solution decreases to satisfy the Ksp constant in the face of rising chloride concentration. The solubility constant is the amount of dissolved salt (Ag+ and Cl- discrete ions) in moles per litre of solvent, for equal amounts of the component ions. Ivan: The solubility constant holds for any PRODUCT of [Ag+] X [Cl-] in water. Equal concentrations of [Ag+] & [Cl-] are a special case brought about when one STARTS with DW and ADDS XS AgCl crystals to it. In this PARTICULAR case, the AgCl crystals dissociate in their components [Ag+], [Cl-] in equal concentrations. A concentration greater than the solubilty constant results in that amount being precipitating as the molecular salt, AgCl Ivan: Here again, one must distinguish between a SOLID crystal AgCl and its molecular, non-crystaline counterpart which, as I said before, probably does not exist. However, in some cases it does. For example, I believe at very high pH, UNDISSOCIATED MOLECULAR NH4OH exists. which, as you say, is a solid. The common ion effect states : that a solute has a lower solubility in a solution containing one of its ions, and is expounded in Le Chateliers principle. In general, the solubility of a salt containing the conjugate base of a weak acid is increased by the addition of a stronger acid to the solution. However, if the anion of a salt is the conjugate base of a strong acid the salt is not soluble in the strong acid. The solubility of AgCl is unaffected by changes in pH because Cl - is the anion of a strong acid and therefore has negligible basicity. Ivan: Thanks for this information. So your calculation at acidic pH is probably correct for the case when you set the [Cl-] to the equivalent of pH2 and calculate the [Ag+]. From your results it would appear that practically ALL the ionic silver would have precipitated. Don't you think? > The concentration of [Cl-] in HCl at pH2 is 1 x 10^-2 M > [Ag-] = 1.8 x 10^-10 / 1.0 x 10^-2 = 1.8 x 10^-8 M > > Ivan: I think you are ignoring the influence of pH on the solubility product > of AgCl(s). Otherwise, your calculation is OK. > > So only 1/500th to 1/1000th of our initial 10ppm CS will remain > dissolved, the rest is passed on as insoluble AgCl, although higher > temperatures increase the solubility and I am as yet unsure on the > effect of the H+ ions and other enzymes, proteins and so on. Also if the > concentration of Cl- anions drops in the duodenum the solubility of the > Ag+ ions will increase. > > What do you make of it? > > Ivan: I still need you to explain to me how clusters of silver metal > particles which have a net positive charge of one (as represented by CS) will > interact the way you have described above. I also need to know what is > present in the stomach which will convert the bulk of the CS which is in the > form of neutral silver metal into INDIVIDUAL silver ions. Roger This is not the representation that I believe is typical of CS at all, at least of LVDC CS. It is my contention that CS is the aggregation of single atomic ions, it is ions that are emitted from the anode and these form distinct crystal like structures of specific numbers and may even be arranged in fractal patterns. Far from each particle (group of atomic ions) having a single positive charge, it has the charge of the sum of the ions incorporated (more or less). Ivan: If THAT were the case then explain what forces are present to hold groups of 20 to 50 positively and INDIVIDUALLY charged ions in such close proximity. In addition, are we to expect that much larger particles of say 500 - 1000 silver atoms have this characteristic as well when we know from experience that particles this large flocculate and eventually drop out of suspension (presumably because there is a much weaker positive charge associated with such particles)? Is there a much weaker positive charge that hold larger particles apart. If there is, at what particle size is there a transition and how is such a transition brought about? If this were not so, then would any battery be able to be recharged? Ivan: Batteries operate on the principle that discrete ions carry the charge from one electrode to another. IMHO, colloidal silver suspensions are electrostatically charged whereby most of the silver exists as neutral atom clusters, with each cluster having lost approximately a single electron. The smaller the clusters the more highly charged and stabile the bulk of the CS. I do not believe that individual silver ions are generated at the positive electrode. Instead, clusters of ATOMS break off at weak points in the metal lattice where the free energy of formation is slightly lower than at other parts of the electrode where the silver has a more uniform lattice (i.e., no missing atoms). Roger Ivan. >> -- The silver-list is a moderated forum for discussion of colloidal silver. To join or quit silver-list or silver-digest send an e-mail message to: [email protected] -or- [email protected] with the word subscribe or unsubscribe in the SUBJECT line. 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