In addition to the added cost of the vehicle, paying 2 to 5 times the cost of gasoline is not a pleasant thought.
Then factor in the cost of a trained attendant and the time to connect the fueling apparatus, and to actually fill the tank (when was the last time you watched the guy at the hardware store fill your gas grill tank?) (( with a scale to weigh the product!)) Also, assuming you have to maintain 50 feet of clearance between actual fueling stations (pumps), the real estate requirements to operate a 10 car operation skyrockets ((pun)). Now, having fueled your beloved H2 behemoth, can you drive through a tunnel or park in an underground parking garage? All light fixtures, ventilation fan motors, and other electrical devices would have to be upgraded and replaced with explosion proof devices in order to obtain approval to change existing laws prohibiting access by gaseous fueled vehicles. On the positive side, Fire Department costs to respond to every automotive accident and flush gasoline and diesel fuel spills into the nearest storm sewer or stream, where the heavier than air vapors can then migrate hundreds of feet or even miles before they find a source of ignition and go boom! I believe Louisville, Kentucky had such an incident a number of years ago which required the repair and replacement of many city blocks of sewers. Hydrogen vapor is infinitely lighter than air and a rupture of a fuel tank would disperse the flammable vapor within seconds or minutes, assuming no source of ignition ((explosion proof spark plugs and wiring, and every other electrical control system in the vehicle)) (((See the Hindenberg disaster video for what happens if there is a source of ignition!))) You can't cost justify hydrogen! A steam engine using a flash boiler with hydrocarbon fuels at 98% combustion efficiency is infinitely more desireable than the alternative, and also safer as there is no steam reservoir to rupture and scald people to death. Apologies for my rant, Al Peirce.... ----- Original Message ----- From: Ode Coyote To: [email protected] Sent: Thursday, February 12, 2004 11:02 AM Subject: Re: CS>the end of the gas age? The links go to ways to use hydrogen but no mention on how to produce hydrogen. Do a search on hydrogen production. To my surprise, liquid hydrogen actually contains more BTUs than gasoline per pound. The pounds are bigger. It takes a fair shot of energy to liquify hydrogen but hydrogen vehicles are more efficient. My guess for the economic breakover is around $4 per gallon of gas. I see it's between $3 and $4 depending on volume of various production methods...eventually around $2.50? Could work! But it's going to be a long hard journey to get there. Modern cars can burn alchohol, ethanol or methanol [naturally a 140 octane fuel] without much modification..an intermediate step? Ode 2.208 pounds of Hydrogen ~ 5.8 to 6.5 lbs gasoline # Hydrogen is the lightest of the elements with an atomic weight of 1.0. Liquid hydrogen has a density of 0.07 grams per cubic centimeter, gasoline about 0.75 g/cc. These facts give hydrogen both advantages and disadvantages. The advantage is that it stores approximately 2.6 times the energy per unit mass as gasoline, and the disadvantage is that it needs about 4 times the volume for a given amount of energy. A 15 gallon automobile gasoline tank contains 90 pounds of gasoline. The corresponding hydrogen tank would be 60 gallons, but the hydrogen would weigh only 34 pounds. # Since the insulation can't be perfect, the liquid hydrogen will gradually evaporate, typically 1.7 percent per day. This is too fast for a car to sit for months between uses. There is a thermochemical process for splitting water that is claimed to be twice as efficient as electrolysis. Here's an article on the sulfur-iodine cycle by Ken Schultz of General Atomic given at a Stanford University Global Climate and Energy sponsored meeting in 2003 April. Interesting links http://www.phoenixproject.net/releases/calch2prdcst.htm http://www.millenniumcell.com/news/hod.html Power tech battery technology yields twice the energy density as lead acid. http://www.powerpwtc.com/index2.html At 09:36 PM 2/11/2004 -0600, you wrote: >>>> Hydrogen is the smallest atom we know making it difficult to contain. Hydrogen has very low energy content meaning you need very high pressures (5,000 psi to 10,000 psi) to carry enough to get anywhere. These pressures make refueling a challenge and a wreck overly exciting even excluding any explosion. Hydrogen is very reactive so there is no source of uncombined hydrogen. Tearing it off takes more energy than you get back. Yes, you could use a "non-polluting" source such as windmills or solar to extract hydrogen but windmills are already getting backpressure from visual pollution and killing birds and its not clear that solar cells recover the energy required to make them during their productive lifetime. I suspect that improved battery technology and nuclear power plants could provide most short range (less than 200 miles round trip) vehicle power. Meanwhile the dream of hydrogen technology continues diverting us from really getting imported oil independence. Terry Chamberlin wrote: Making hydrogen from water takes a lot more energy than you get out of using the hydrogen.< Then take a look at this: <http://email.gmcanada.com/corpdb/cachq/pressrel.nsf/0/f31c06740fddd3a585256bd0006e9496?OpenDocument>http://email.gmcanada.com/corpdb/cachq/pressrel.nsf/0/f31c06740fddd3a585256bd0006e9496?OpenDocument <http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/03_43/b3855073.htm>http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/03_43/b3855073.htm <http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/10.08/fuelcellcars.html>http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/10.08/fuelcellcars.html <http://liberty.hypermart.net/editorials/Hydrogen_Car.htm>http://liberty.hypermart.net/editorials/Hydrogen_Car.htm ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! <http://personals.yahoo.ca>http://personals.yahoo.ca -- The silver-list is a moderated forum for discussion of colloidal silver. 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