Re: CS>Re : CS>best pppm of CS to make and use From: Ode Coyote Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 04:06:15 http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/m75043.html
>> The oxides do not contribute to the conductivity of the cs, and >> here's how we can tell. >> If you measure the cell voltage, it decreases with time as ions >> enter the solution. >> However, as soon as the ions reach the opposite electrodes, oxide >> formation begins in the Nernst diffusion layer. The cell voltage >> stops decreasing and flattens out. This shows all the current is >> going to making oxides. > Except that they could also be coating the electrodes with a non > or semi conductive surface which would also flatted the voltage > decrease curve by partaially preventing the current from reaching > the opposite electrode like putting a resistor in series. Very true. With constant current, any additional resistance would increase the voltage and counteract the decrease due to conductance. So the cell voltage would tend to plateau. At the current density I run, silver atoms form "Spanish Moss" on the cathode at the end of the brew. Sol also mentioned it on her Silverpuppy, so it does form at higher current densities. Presumably, each silver ion that makes it to the cathode takes one ion out of the total conductance and prevents one hydroxyl ion from being formed, so the effect on conductance is doubled. But electrons do not flow in water, so the silver ion actually has to touch the cathode to gain an electron. Since it is that close, it is likely to be captured by van Der Walls forces and stick to the cathode, and does not wander throughout the solution like the oxides. However, hydrogen gas is still being formed at the cathode, and is enclosed by the silver atoms. This means hydroxyl ions are still entering the solution, which should increase the conductance. Also, some outgoing hydroxyl ions are likely to meet incoming silver ions in the Nernst diffusion layer, so some oxides are formed near the cathode. This reduces the cell conductance, and contributes to the voltage plateau. At the same time, the anode may get coated with a thin coat of black silver oxide. This is electrically conductive, but it probably doesn't contribute silver ions to the solution. If it did, the black coating would disappear, but instead it grows thicker with time. So perhaps the coating may limit the area available to generate ions, which would tend to increase the cell voltage as you point out. So a lot of things are happening at the voltage plateau, but it is clear oxides are being formed that collect on the anode and enter the solution. So in general, we can probably say the plateau is mostly due to oxide formation. I'm going to perform a simple experiment soon and shine a laser pointer on the electrodes while the brew is in progress. Theoretically, the Tyndall should not exist at the start of the brew, but should start at the anode about the same time the black oxide becomes visible and the cell voltage starts to plateau. I expect to see a slightly weaker Tyndall at the cathode due to silver ions forming Spanish moss. > Not that what you say doesn't happen too, but I've cleaned the > electrodes and had the voltage start dropping again after stalling > out many a time. Yes, I see the same thing. But it quickly stalls again. > At the low end of a voltage plot after about 30uS, it does tend to > flatten out even after cleaning the electrodes while the current > stay the same. Up to around 25-30 uS the drop is pretty linear at > 1 ma. 30uS? That is rocket fuel! How do you reach that without having it turn yellow before the brew is done? I can't get much above 24 ppm before it starts showing a yellow tint. We really need to plot the voltage curve and verify it is linear. I just spotted a nice dvm at Radio Shack for about US$60 that has a 300 baud RS-232 interface. We should both get one and I could write some data collection software we could share. I plan to include the Faraday calculations and plot the reciprocal of conductance and calculated ppm in WPlot. That should tell us a great deal about what is happening, and of course, generate a slew of new questions:) > Beyond that point, the CS going yellow gets more and more likely > as well...and, yellow CS reacts to H2O2 very much like it reacts > with the black oxide on the electrode and the black fluffy > deposits that copper drops onto the bottom after a piece of shiny > copper wire is left there for several days. > In the Canadian study that James Allison re-found, there is > mention of copper being antagonistic to silver ions. Could be a > correlation there? I don't know. But why do you mention this? Most cs generators are all silver, or should be:) >> But, if the oxides contributed to the conductivity, the cell >> voltage would continue decreasing indefinitely. > I'll buy that beyond a point over 20 uS, but also look at where > most of the oxides are..on the electrode surface...not doing much > in the way of conducting electricity. Yes, Ken, silver oxide is conductive. Look at the silver oxide batteries keeping time in your computer or in hearing aids. The silver oxide would help form hydrogen gas at the cathode, but probably doesn't contribute to silver ion release at the anode. Otherwise it would shrink instead of growing thicker. I don't think we can say most of the oxides stick to the electrodes. Probably more goes into the cs. [...] > I was referring to CS in general as the grenade and precise PPM > not mattering much so long as you get into the parking lot of the > ball park. 1 to 1 is better than OK. :-) >> [...] >> What happened to the simple thermal stirring you used to use? >> Actually, I tried it as well as the other methods, and found >> running without stirring worked best for me. Of course, I use >> about 1/10th the current density you do, so the brew takes >> longer. > I still use it because it is unbreakable and you can't wear it > out, [and looks cool] but also offer a way to enhance it..if > desired. It's not necessary to get a desired result but it does > save some time and steps to get there. >> That's OK - I still make much more than I can use. With 22 ppm, I >> only need 1 oz every three or four days, where I used to need 8 >> oz of 10 ppm every day, and it still didn't kill the Shingles and >> cold sore viruses. > Everyone is different and ya gotta do what works. I've never known > any CS to not stop a cold sore but I don't know everyone. Sol just had a bad cold that didn't respond to low-ppm cs. I expect to see this more often as the group ages. > I don't know anyone with shingles going either way..except you. Trem had it twice. I came across his post in the archives recently. > Your experience may well be very useful for someone who has tried > and not succeeded. High-ppm cs is definitely the way to go. It also killed the cold sores from a teenager house guest that the 10 ppm cs barely touched. >>> All silver oxides I know of display a color ranging from >>> yellow-brown to black. What if there is no color yet many >>> particles are apparent in a TE? How could they be an oxide? >> Yes, despite Marshall's claim, the oxides that coat the >> electrodes are not soluble, and they do contribute to Tyndall. > How could they do that if they're on the electrodes? The oxide forms close to, but not touching the electrodes. Probability theory states half will go towards the electrode. Some of those may collide and stick. The rest head off into the solution where they may collide with other oxides and agglomerate into bigger particles where they start to show Tyndall. So the absense of Tyndall really doesn't tell much about the formation of oxides, and probably the visible oxide on the electrodes is only a fraction of the amount in solution. > There's more than one oxide of silver. [4, I believe] > Ag2O colour: dark brown to black. solubility/water @25C: 22 mg/L > AgO colour: charcoal gray powder, black crystal solubility/water > @20C: decomposes in water...which means? If you see any, the water > is already saturated with it?????.. I generally brew 22 ppm cs. The oxide collects on the anode in the last 1/2 hr or so, which is about the same time the cell voltage starts to plateau. In my system, silver is entering the solution at a rate of 1.55 ppm per hour, so the final phase accounts for a total of about 0.75 ppm. The visible oxide on the anode may account for half or less, with the rest wandering around in the solution as described above. So it is apparent the oxide that forms on the anode is far below the solubility figures stated in the chemistry books, and it is still not in solution. You also did a test recently that gave Hanna readings that were identical to the Faraday calculation at about 22 ppm. This shows very little oxide was formed. But it would be interesting to examine this test in more detail, since you mentioned the baking soda caused a reaction starting about an hour later. > backing up what you say but going a bit beyond to say that both > views are correct depending on concentrations but neither saying > anything about pure silver particles also being there in the water > or what actually happens when H2O2 hits those dissolved oxides and > why it sometimes does nothing apparent at all. There can be no pure silver particles in solution since electrons do not flow in water. Once a silver atom gives up an electron and becomes an ion, it can't get it back. The only way a silver ion can find a negative charge is when it meets a hydroxyl ion and combines to form silver oxide, which is inert. The only other way is for it to reach the cathode and form Spanish moss, but this only happens at low current density. At the current densities used in the 3 nines, both anode and cathode get covered with black silver oxide. The situation is even worse in Jason's 4 nines generator, since the higher voltage increases the current rise at the end of the brew. >> That really bothers me. I got it once, but never again. And now >> you and several others are getting it. Strange. > The "explosion of milkyness". I didn't get it at first either, but > I was using off the shelf batches, not very fresh batches. > Perhaps when you make yours at very low current densities and a > lot of time, whatever happens to stored batches happens to yours > as it's being made...most of the time. I'll have to take another look and see if I can get it to appear. > I tried running at 14 microamps per square inch [if I recollect > that figure right] as per your suggestion a while back and the CS > was deep yellow before I got to 20 uS. I've never seen yellow CS > "explode"..just clear up eventaully and increase TE [not lose TE > as some find] We should check the data in the archives - I seem to recall you were running at somewhat higher current density, maybe 140uA/sq.in. I don't remember any mention of yellow tint, but I do recall you mentioning the Spanish moss on the cathode. > I never use more than 1 drop of H2O2 per fl oz as I hate the taste > after that. [yuk] I stopped using H2O2 for the same reason. Plus, it is not needed if there are no oxides. > I think the solution to all this will be a matter of this 'and' > that, plus the other stuff, rather than this 'or' that, excluding > the rest. > Too complicated for me and I can't bring myself to simplify > something that plainly ain't simple. > I guess I'll just have to go with whatever works without knowing > what it is. [Given a mountain of ammo, I don't really care how > much shot doesn't hit the duck so long as I get dinner.] Yeah, but what if you just shot a decoy. Wouldn't all those wood slivers get stuck in your teeth? > If 'this' isn't working for me, I'll for sure go with 'that' which > does, for me. Whatever the heck it is that works for you, I'm very > glad you found it and it has value. Ken, the doctors say another SARS virus is only a matter of time. It is very difficult to kill, and is a serious problem for older people with degraded immune systems. This increases the mortality rate. Despite Jason's comments on using low-ppm cs, I definitely find high ppm ionic cs much more effective than the 5 to 10 ppm stuff from the typical 3 nines. It only makes sense that a stronger cs will have greater effect. I believe we should have the strongest possible cs available when it is needed, and should continue examining the process to see where we can make improvements. So I very much appreciate your comments! > Can't have too many options. Yes. >>> Ode [ken] Best Wishes, Mike Monett -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: [email protected] Silver List archive: http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/index.html Address Off-Topic messages to: [email protected] OT Archive: http://escribe.com/health/silverofftopiclist/index.html List maintainer: Mike Devour <[email protected]>
