I am reposting this again due to it being missing from the archives This message is broken into 2 parts due to the 20 K limit of this list.
Mike Monett wrote: > Re: CS> Marshall, Tell me again about 0.9 ppm for blood > From: Marshall Dudley > Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 12:35:14 > http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/m79705.html > > > I don't favor one over the other. I think the best is a mix of the > > two. Particles don't react with the HCl in the stomach and can > > thus pass directly into the blood steam. > > What is your definition of a "particle"? The only one I know in cs > is silver hydroxide: > > Ag(+) + OH(-) --> AgOH (Actually silver hydroxide is a doublet of that) No silver hydroxide would be an ionic form of silver when dissolved. Any that exceeds the limit of solubility is a silver hydroxide precipitate, and not being discussed. What most people call ionic silver is a combination of silver hydroxide and silver oxide in solution. When you evaporate it, then the silver hydroxide converts to silver oxide. The reason for this is that since silver oxide and silver hydroxide are continually forming from each other when in solution, when silver oxide and water is formed, the water evaporates, leaving only the silver oxide behind with no water to reform silver hydroxide again. A silver particle is a colloidal suspension of a clump of silver atoms of 2 or more atoms that is sufficiently small and with sufficient zeta to stay in colloidal form. Analyze the meaning of the words, "silver particle", that means a particle of silver. So typical EIS is about 90% silver hydroxide/silver oxide, and about 10% colloidal silver particles. The silver particles are easy to determine since they absorb light depending on their size, so the color that you see is the complement of the absorbed color. The color they absorb vs size is available in scientific literature, and I have posted the graphs here previously, and the colors one gets as the particles grow conform quite well to theory and the curves. I have not only researched the scientific literature on this, but have run photospectrometer absorption graphs of EIS and confirmed that the absorption wavelength drops with particle size exactly as the literature claims it does. > > > Frank Key's Dr. Maass claims silver hydroxide is soluble to 13.3 ppm > in his paper, "Solubility Products Involving Silver Compounds". The > pdf file is on Frank's web page > > http://www.silver-colloids.com/Papers/papers.html > > but the site seems to be down at the moment so I can't give the > exact url. Anyway, his calculation is wrong. That is correct, the best estimate is that it is soluble to about 13 ppm. However so is the solubility of silver oxide, and since both are in the solution, the total solubility of the ionic portion of EIS can approach 27 ppm for solutions with a pH of around 7. > Silver hydroxide is > insoluble, as shown in my proof at > > http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/m79117.html > > and > > http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/m78851.html I have seen no such proof. Everything I can find indicates that silver hydroxide has some solubility, from a low of 13 to about 100 ppm. It has a KNOWN solubility product of about 7.7, that makes it impossible to be insoluble, but is instead sparingly soluble, the math shows it to be soluble to about 13 ppm. If it was not soluble then there could not be ionic silver since ionic silver is a combination of silver oxide and silver hydroxide. If either were insoluble, then all would convert to the insoluble form and precipitate out, making it impossible to have ionic silver. By claiming that silver hydroxide is insoluble, you are also claiming that there is no such thing as ionic silver, which I am sure is not your intention. You did post something about taking an electrode that had silver powder on it that was black, and rubbing it and it became silver colored as expected, and I explained that phenomena to you some time back, that silver is very malleable, and the powder forms larger particles that are then silver colored. Silver hydroxide spontaneously forms silver oxide when it dries out, and silver oxide is not reduced by simply rubbing it. Also silver oxide or hydroxide cannot possibly plate out on an electrode, the electric field moves the silver ions toward the cathode, where they plate out as black silver powder, and moves the OH- toward the anode, where oxygen can be evolved as if forms oxygen and water. They travel in opposite directions, and thus cannot plate out as a compound (one that is sparingly soluble as well). Now on one electrode we should get black silver powder, and on the other electrode we have O atoms appearing. O (not O2) is extremely active, and can react with the silver electrode producing silver oxide Ag2O. Initially this will dissolve off into the water increasing the ionic portion of the EIS. However as one approaches the solubility limit of silver oxide in water, it can and will start forming a coating on the electrode (also any silver peroxide formed will stay on the electrode since silver peroxide is totally insoluble.). The color of this should be brown or tan, and the silver metal powder should be black. This is exactly what one sees when running a generator to higher ppms and not reversing polarity as theory predicts. Now if we reverse polarity, the silver metal starts going back into solution as Ag2 ions and forming silver hydroxide and silver oxide in the liquid. Thus the large buildup of black deposits ends up getting reduced. Any silver oxide formed on the other elctrode will react with the released OH radicals, and form silver metal and water. Once again the theory is supported by experiments that show that what is formed on each electrode will go away when the polarity is reversed, and the opposite form will begin building up.. > > Any silver ions that may plate out on the cathode at very low > current density are captured by Van der Waals forces, so they are > not likely to go back into solution. Instead, they make a sludge. > Yes, they make a black silver powder on the electrode, as I have been saying. > > I haven't seen any balanced equations or credible explanations to > show how other "particles" are produced. > That is simple. The silver ions leave the anode as Ag+. The OH radical leaves the cathode as OH-. They form a solution of Ag2OH2 which is silver hydroxide and which continually converts to silver oxide Ag2O and back again. If the Ag+ gets too crowded together near the anode, and with the addition of the Browning movement from temperature and the replusion of other Ag+ ions in the vicinity, some manage collide, and form particles due to the Van der Waals force. The reaction for silver hydroxide is: Ag2(+)OH2(-) + Ag2(+)OH2(-) => 4Ag + 2H2O + O2 and for silver oxide it is: Ag(+)2O(--) + Ag(+)2O(--) => 2Ag + O2 > > Ions become silver chloride in the stomach, and thus are metered > > into the blood stream at a slower rate, but can be inproved by > > mixing with an electrolyte solution before taking. > > I find sublingual absorption to be most effective. However, a simple > test proves the silver ions combine with salt in the saliva to > produce AgCl. This is why I was so interested to see your silver > chloride solubility post. That is correct. > > > > Ionic silver alone can cause Argyria, but when there are particles > > present they act as a prophylatic and prevent Argyria. > > I don't think so. Do you have any balanced equations to show this? I don't need them, it is extremely well known, it is the basis of the photographic process, and many people have gotten argyria from silver salts. But the equations are simple: Ag(+) Cl(-) + photon -> Ag + Cl This is the photoreduction process and is very well documented. It is done every time you take a picture in your camera. With developer present in a basic solution, then the same reduction occurs, but this time, it only occurs when there are silver atoms present for the atoms in the salt to plate out on, this is the photographic development process, once again very well documented and known by science and industry. If you don't understand it, and don't believe it despite having seen photos many times in your life, then get a book on the chemistry of photography, it should give you all the information you need. We know this can happen in the blood stream since we have documented proof that people can get argyria from silver salts, that is ionic forms of silver that form silver chloride in the stomach and blood. It is completely expected when one understands photoreduction and development of silver salts. Now argyria proves that in the body silver salts will deposit onto silver particles in the skin. But when we add particles to silver salts, as in EIS we also know that it does NOT cause argyria. The only difference is that there are silver particles throughout the blood stream, and not just in the skin. That means that instead of a few particles in the skin growing by huge amounts, the huge number of particles in the blood grow very slightly. Thus the former get stuck in the tissues, and the latter do not. The predicted result is that silver salts alone can cause argyria, but EIS, that is ionic silver with colloidal silver cannot. The results of all our searching indicates that this is true, and thus supports the theory. If you have any other theory as to why ionic silver (IE silver compounds that form silver chloride in the stomach) without the colloidal part will cause argyria, but when there is a colloidal component does not cause argyria, then I would like to hear it. You have to make sure that the theory is supported by what it known and the evidence, you can't just say you believe something that completely flies into the face of the evidence and let it go at that.. Continued next message -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. 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