Monday, September 10, 2007, Matt Mahoney wrote: MM> Perhaps I misunderstand, but to make your argument more precise: MM> X is an implementation of a mind, a Turing machine.
No. The whole argument is about why turing machine-like implementation of uploaded brain doesn't seem to do the trick. X is an original meaty brain, say collection of locations of atoms, which is as starting point assumed to implement subjective experience. Point of discussion is to show that it's not as obvious as it seems from the first look that uploaded X will also implement subjective experience. I thought that too initially, before arriving at this argument. Now Z IS a turing machine-like thing. S is something that is an essense of subjective experience-generating structure, and in case of a brain it closely corresponds to its physical structure. It need not be the simpliest representation possible. MM> S is the function computed by X, i.e. a canonical form of X, the smallest or MM> first Turing machine in an enumeration of all machines equivalent to X. By MM> equivalent, I mean that X(w) = S(w) for all input strings w in A* over some MM> alphabet A. MM> Define F: F(X) = S (canonical form of X), for all X. F is not computable, but MM> that is not important for this discussion. I intentionally don't want to exactly define what S is as it describes vaguely-defined 'subjective experience generator'. I instead leave it at description level. MM> An upload, Z, of X is defined as any Turing machine such that F(Z) = F(X) = S, MM> i.e. Z and X are equivalent. F'(Z)=F(X)=S, Z is an upload of X. They are equivalent given F and F', and F' doesn't in itself correspond to Z, for example there is a F'' just as good, which results in a different F''(Z), so it's a big question if Z and X are equivalent, or rather Z is as equivalent to F'(Z)=S as it is equivalent to F''(Z)=S'<>S. Also bugfix in my previous message: it's F''(Z)=S'<>S, not F''(L)=S'<>S MM> Then the paradox in your last example cannot exist because F(nothing) != S, That F was a different F, which is by definition equal to S. Say, F*(nothing)=S (by definition). I omitted details about time and I/O for simplicity, but they can be factored in with minor changes. MM> The other problem is that you have not defined "subjective experience". MM> Presumably this is the input to a consciousness? If consciousness does not MM> exist, then how can subjective experience exist? There is only input to the MM> Turing machine that may or may not affect the output. A reasonable definition MM> of subjective experience would be the subset of inputs that affect the output. It's more like I look for proper definition of subjective experience based on presented thought experiment. So I substitute unknown definition by associated symbol (S) and describe its properties. -- Vladimir Nesov mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] ----- This list is sponsored by AGIRI: http://www.agiri.org/email To unsubscribe or change your options, please go to: http://v2.listbox.com/member/?member_id=4007604&id_secret=40011790-2fef3d
