What's the status of Houdini and/or other apps in terms of render passes, etc.? I just love me some passes and overrides and have been using them insanely for years. I'm terrified to try and work without them.
Kris On Sun, Jan 18, 2015 at 4:40 AM, Raffaele Fragapane < raffsxsil...@googlemail.com> wrote: > Be ready to have someone write some help if you ever do, without a decent > system to reduce them to sparse data and to work do the work GPU side 800 > shapes move at the speed of a brick chained to a column, especially in Maya > :) XSI 5 however was managing it respectably well already on Pentium III > and 4s back then :) > > On Sun, Jan 18, 2015 at 2:44 AM, Greg Punchatz <g...@janimation.com> > wrote: > >> Thanks Raff, >> >> I have used both techniques but never heard some of those terms.... ICE >> made doing this work much easier for me. >> >> I have never ended up with 800 shapes.... but give me the time and the >> budget and that sounds like a blast :) >> >> >> On Sat, Jan 17, 2015 at 5:06 PM, Raffaele Fragapane < >> raffsxsil...@googlemail.com> wrote: >> >>> You can blame Bay Raitt for some of the names being thrown around, and >>> the LISP community he grew up in :) >>> >>> Combination sculpting comes in two flavors, FACS based, with expressions >>> tabled out and combinations being largely corrective and flattened out, and >>> twitch based, with shapes representing individual muscles as roots, >>> combinations of nearby muscles in couples or triplets as first branch, and >>> so on to full face compensation, usually you stop at tier three or four, >>> which can easily get you hundreds of shapes (Charlotte in Charlotte's web >>> was twitch combinations and amounted to 802 shapes, Gollum in return of the >>> kind was FACS and I think Bay ended up in the 820 or so range in the end). >>> >>> You can use something like stretch mesh (or ideally better) equalisation >>> process after that to reduce drift if you're in a hurry with the broad >>> strokes. >>> >>> Combinatorics are shapes that bridge two other shapes by correcting >>> their conflict (additive) rather than by replacing them (you can combine >>> with C = abs(A-B) in the former, or suplant with C = abs(A-B) and then >>> subtract C's intensity from A and B). >>> >>> On Sat, Jan 17, 2015 at 10:59 PM, Greg Punchatz <g...@janimation.com> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> We (Brad did all the ICE magic) worked up some pretty niffy tricks for >>>> our head tech demo. >>>> >>>> We could pose our head which was a slightly enhanced FR rig export a >>>> reference head into ZB... bring it back into soft the subtract the the >>>> deforms of the mesh and reapply only the differences from the corrective >>>> shape. >>>> >>>> Point drift is caused most of the time by subdividing the model in >>>> Zbrush. If you do a subdivision in Z all your base point will shift. In >>>> our case the mesh was dense enough that was not an issue, we could still >>>> clearly see the forms without subdividing while in Zbrush. Brad wired up a >>>> ICE tree for the imported corrective shapes to be triggered by pulling >>>> different distances from the rig. Of course drift can happen from someone >>>> moving points they have no business of moving, or even worse they move >>>> points in the wrong direction for the correction or shape. I always work in >>>> a stepped process to avoid this for shapes, whether I sent to Zbrush or >>>> not. I am at first only focused on how the point mass moves first. I try to >>>> get this done with as few proportional moves as possible. Then I test the >>>> motion in Soft and on the rig., take a look at what it looks like with the >>>> jaw open etc. Then I slowly massage the shapes into place checking the >>>> sculpt in action >>>> >>>> I don't remember if the zbrush link busts your rig, in our case the >>>> workflow was to use separate reference geo. >>>> >>>> It is better if it when done all under one roof but if my point count >>>> goes high enough I will jump through a few hoops to get to a better point >>>> manipulator. >>>> >>>> Raf I have never heard the term combinatorics before, and when I looked >>>> it up I could not find any references that clearly showed me how it applied >>>> to shape animation or rigging. Can you point me to a reference that might >>>> help fill in my knowledge gap : ) >>>> >>>> Also Eric, I had heard of folks having a different neutral vs skinning >>>> pose but I have not really seen a good explanation of the idea. I have >>>> modified a sculpt to be better for rigging, but that shape then becomes my >>>> base shape. What is the difference? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sat, Jan 17, 2015 at 2:31 PM, Raffaele Fragapane < >>>> raffsxsil...@googlemail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> If you're doing combinatorics you don't model the shapes in isolation, >>>>> you tweak a base and need to see the result on the combination, which >>>>> might >>>>> be one to four tiers of combinations away. >>>>> You don't do combination sculpting without the rig because you don't >>>>> do combination sculpting on the final shape half the time if you're >>>>> sensible and can't waste a lot of time in kickbacks. >>>>> >>>>> Doing shapes in ZBrush is doable, but they all need a lot of work >>>>> after coming back in because by the nature of ZBrush you will have shit >>>>> drifting all over the place. When they will add more than a single morph >>>>> and a few simple vector operations to wire the morphs it will then be the >>>>> ultimate tool for it, right now it's like trying to drive a truck out of a >>>>> parking lot with a small gate. Blindfolded. On iced out ground. With a >>>>> monkey hitting you on the head with a baseball bat every five seconds. >>>>> Technically doable, but not worth the bother unless you get to show the >>>>> mental breakdowns on TV and cash them in :) >>>>> >>>>> If you're doing cartoony or largely procedurally shaded stuff you can >>>>> take a fair amount of drift. if you're doing something that has hundreds >>>>> of >>>>> rigid scales or precisely styled hair bound to the UV space it's an >>>>> unmitigated disaster when you don't have something like Soft (or a shitton >>>>> of stuff piled on top of Maya) around to do the work. >>>>> >>>>> On Sat, Jan 17, 2015 at 6:16 PM, Greg Punchatz <g...@janimation.com> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Raff while what you say is true about needing to check the results of >>>>>> your sculpts in combination with with other shapes and deformers. There >>>>>> is >>>>>> no reason those edits should not be done in the tool-set best suited to >>>>>> sculpt. >>>>>> >>>>>> Using something like Zaplink or a few scripts can make the back and >>>>>> forth seamless. ICE made it so much easier to to pose based deformations >>>>>> and corrective shapes using Zbrush to edit. >>>>>> >>>>>> That being said I still do a great bit of my shape work in soft, >>>>>> unless its a very dense mesh, then I whip out the Z >>>>>> >>>>>> On Fri, Jan 16, 2015 at 6:16 PM, Raffaele Fragapane < >>>>>> raffsxsil...@googlemail.com> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> The problem with ZBrush, or any modelling app that doesn't have your >>>>>>> full rig in it, is that for things like combination sculpting they are >>>>>>> useless, because you need to see multiple timelines of the shapes >>>>>>> converging as you refine them for the result to be any good. It's also a >>>>>>> ton easier to get combinatorics started in Soft since you can start any >>>>>>> shape from any number of others with ICE. I so miss that in any other >>>>>>> app >>>>>>> (that last bit is literally the only one where Houdini could compete or >>>>>>> even surpass Soft, actually, though it's somewhat painful to wrangle the >>>>>>> shit together when you hit a certain degree of complexity and you end up >>>>>>> spending more time making an uber rig than you do working the shapes' >>>>>>> alignment). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Fri, Jan 16, 2015 at 11:27 PM, Jordi Bares Dominguez < >>>>>>> jordiba...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Thanks for the notes, there has been quite a lot of changes but it >>>>>>>> is true there are a few of your comments still pending, the most >>>>>>>> pressing >>>>>>>> to me is speed and the viewport needs still lots of love. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> BTW, I was not advocating to use Houdini for modelling though, >>>>>>>> rather use Zbrush to be honest and now that Zbrush is getting closer >>>>>>>> to a >>>>>>>> full set of traditional modelling tools it is pretty obvious it is the >>>>>>>> route to go. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> My feeling is that character work is certainly more painful but at >>>>>>>> least you get some serious gains and unfortunately there are no >>>>>>>> options so >>>>>>>> we are in a transition moment. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> So far they are listening and moving forward so I will stick to >>>>>>>> Houdini for the time being and keep an eye on others. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> :-) >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> jb >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 16 Jan 2015, at 21:28, Raffaele Fragapane < >>>>>>>> raffsxsil...@googlemail.com> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> A lot of quality rigging, despite piles of papers trying to sell >>>>>>>> the public on the contrary, is still manually tweaked. Taking things >>>>>>>> out of >>>>>>>> the app where you have the full rig makes authoring a major pain. The >>>>>>>> most >>>>>>>> basic example is shapes, doing shapes work in XSI for something like a >>>>>>>> combination sculpting setup was as easy as it got, especially after >>>>>>>> ICE. >>>>>>>> The way data is presented and accessible, the speed on large >>>>>>>> meshes, the modelling toolkit, it all lent itself to that kind of work >>>>>>>> in a >>>>>>>> perfect storm scenario. >>>>>>>> Doing the same in Maya, comparatively, is beyond painful and >>>>>>>> requires a pretty big staging effort to separate work and write >>>>>>>> accessory >>>>>>>> tools, in Houdini you don't even have a particularly intuitive >>>>>>>> modelling >>>>>>>> toolkit, and the handling of large meshes was pretty meh with it (at >>>>>>>> least >>>>>>>> up to 12, it seems to be getting better and promising to be getting >>>>>>>> better >>>>>>>> again). >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The toolkit in general is pretty hard to impossible to give to a >>>>>>>> modeller with little inclination to learn something like Houdini, while >>>>>>>> with both Maya and Soft that's not a big challenge. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I haven't tried the muscle system in a while, so my comment might >>>>>>>> be dated to the point of not being valid, but the last time I did it >>>>>>>> was a >>>>>>>> bit of a joke. No arbitrary topology for the deformers unless you cloth >>>>>>>> collided (and the cloth solver was anything but acceptable), only some >>>>>>>> weak >>>>>>>> superset of metaballs, rather slow, but at least it was relatively >>>>>>>> stable, >>>>>>>> and overall clunky and requiring the lot a lot of micromanagement and >>>>>>>> a lot >>>>>>>> of SOPs that often refused to play nicely with the rest of the app. >>>>>>>> Mind, I haven't found a single commercial muscle system I would use >>>>>>>> if they paid me for it, which is pretty embarrassing given when we >>>>>>>> needed >>>>>>>> one for WWD we got a rather intuitive one done in just a few weeks that >>>>>>>> worked for over 99% of the show meshes without manual intervention of >>>>>>>> any >>>>>>>> sort on the sim, and literally only a dozen mesh fixes across over 800 >>>>>>>> shots. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On top of all that, and again this is pre-14, most pre-13, it's >>>>>>>> slow. Mind boggingly slow to articulate a decent animation rig. I >>>>>>>> suspect >>>>>>>> this last point has been, or is about to be, superseded though since >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> viewport has been getting some love. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The main issue though remains that preparing an asset in Houdini >>>>>>>> remains a long and involved process which very few people from other >>>>>>>> departments, some times nobody, can be recruited into, it's born, >>>>>>>> lives and >>>>>>>> dies in the hands of TDs. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I've always had a soft spot for Houdini, and I'd give my money to >>>>>>>> SideFX rather than many other companies any day of the year, but as a >>>>>>>> company their commitment to character work of artistic or hybrid >>>>>>>> nature has >>>>>>>> always been patchy (and I don't necessarily blame them for it) and >>>>>>>> subpar. >>>>>>>> They have a lot of work to make up for it, but they seem to be >>>>>>>> slowly doing it while making sure they don't lose their core business >>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>> FX and end-to-end clients. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I will certainly be looking at H14 as soon as some space for it in >>>>>>>> the stash of stuff I need and want to do before clears up :) >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Fri, Jan 16, 2015 at 6:45 PM, Jordi Bares Dominguez < >>>>>>>> jordiba...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> May I ask you to elaborate the “complex character rigging and >>>>>>>>> tuned deformation”, I may be missing something. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> To start with you have muscles in Houdini which you don’t, let >>>>>>>>> alone FEM simulations and a universal physics engine to cope with >>>>>>>>> pretty >>>>>>>>> sophisticated things… >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Certainly it is easier in Softimage and more artist friendly to >>>>>>>>> setup but I see the rigging side as one very strong point. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> If you are talking about screen space corrections, blend shapes >>>>>>>>> and advanced contact collision its certainly doable with the toolset. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> :-| >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> thx >>>>>>>>> jb >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On 16 Jan 2015, at 16:59, Raffaele Fragapane < >>>>>>>>> raffsxsil...@googlemail.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> It's only true for some definitions of rigging. >>>>>>>>> If you need proceduralism of course it does spectacularly well, >>>>>>>>> and assets are simply best of breed in the industry and have been for >>>>>>>>> years, end of story. >>>>>>>>> For the hand-crafted complex character rig and tuned deformation >>>>>>>>> kind of job though, no, it's not nicer than Soft, and I'd be hard >>>>>>>>> pressed >>>>>>>>> to make an argument for it over Maya (which I consider pretty bottom >>>>>>>>> barreling already without a ton of custom work). >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Some of the upgrades in H14 and some of the future roadmap do bode >>>>>>>>> well for that though. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Fri, Jan 16, 2015 at 1:28 PM, Gerbrand Nel <nagv...@gmail.com> >>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Well I say nicer, because there are allot of toys to play with. >>>>>>>>>> I think rigging is the part where you need a non destructive >>>>>>>>>> procedural work flow the most. >>>>>>>>>> In Maya it feels like you have to make damn sure you are done >>>>>>>>>> with step A before moving onto step B. >>>>>>>>>> Houdini is flexible to the point where you become reckless with >>>>>>>>>> your work flow :) >>>>>>>>>> Bit more complex when you get started, but worth it. >>>>>>>>>> The auto rig at the very least doesn't break like the soft one >>>>>>>>>> used to in 2011 :) >>>>>>>>>> G >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On 16/01/2015 14:08, Mirko Jankovic wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Riggin nicer then Soft? >>>>>>>>>> Will have to check it out then.. In maya rigging and enveloping >>>>>>>>>> is huge crap and biggest reason that I don't wanna ago back int >>>>>>>>>> othat hell >>>>>>>>>> at first place. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Jan 16, 2015 at 12:11 PM, Gerbrand Nel <nagv...@gmail.com >>>>>>>>>> > wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> After trying to learn maya for about 6 months, learning houdini >>>>>>>>>>> is a breath of fresh air!! >>>>>>>>>>> It is not softimage, but I think its the only thing that will >>>>>>>>>>> come close to the flexibility and power of soft for small studios >>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>> freelancers. >>>>>>>>>>> Once you get into it, It is even more power. >>>>>>>>>>> I tried learning it about 2 years ago, and gave up because I >>>>>>>>>>> thought my time would be better spent getting better in soft (the >>>>>>>>>>> future >>>>>>>>>>> was still bright back then) >>>>>>>>>>> Back then it seemed complicated, but after dealing with maya, it >>>>>>>>>>> feels sooo much friendlier. >>>>>>>>>>> The way I see it, you get the operator stack, and ice tree, all >>>>>>>>>>> in one place, the network view >>>>>>>>>>> So its one thing to learn. >>>>>>>>>>> In Maya I feel like I have to learn new software every time I do >>>>>>>>>>> something else. >>>>>>>>>>> Rigging I found nicer than soft, and the animation editor in >>>>>>>>>>> houdini feels like a polished version of the soft one. >>>>>>>>>>> Houdini engine is still blowing my mind.. like it doesn't stop!! >>>>>>>>>>> At $300 you cannot ignore this as a piece of your pipeline! >>>>>>>>>>> I'll probably do allot of work in maya because I need to fit >>>>>>>>>>> into teams of Mayans, but with the houdini engine, I can do the >>>>>>>>>>> work in the >>>>>>>>>>> software best suited for it, without forcing the rest of the team to >>>>>>>>>>> conform. >>>>>>>>>>> G >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On 16/01/2015 12:08, Mirko Jankovic wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> modeling and character riga nd animation wise it is I assume >>>>>>>>>>>> sitill nt as suser friendly as SI right? >>>>>>>>>>>> how us ievrall generalist and smalls tudio experience? >>>>>>>>>>>> SI is more or less out of the box great steramlined solution.. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> Our users will know fear and cower before our software! Ship it! >>>>>>>>> Ship it and let them flee like the dogs they are! >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> Our users will know fear and cower before our software! Ship it! >>>>>>>> Ship it and let them flee like the dogs they are! >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> Our users will know fear and cower before our software! Ship it! >>>>>>> Ship it and let them flee like the dogs they are! >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Our users will know fear and cower before our software! Ship it! Ship >>>>> it and let them flee like the dogs they are! >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Our users will know fear and cower before our software! Ship it! Ship it >>> and let them flee like the dogs they are! >>> >> >> > > > -- > Our users will know fear and cower before our software! Ship it! Ship it > and let them flee like the dogs they are! >
