Le 2012-04-11 à 17:54, Maoke a écrit :

> 
> 
> 2012/4/12 Rémi Després <[email protected]>
> 
> Le 2012-04-11 à 15:44, Maoke a écrit :
> 
>> 
>> postpone other parts, but focus on the checksum issue. 
>> 2012/4/11 Rémi Després [email protected]
>>  
>> 5.4 Impact c. - it is true that, in the IPv6 packet of a tunneled ICMPv4 
>> message, the ICMPv4 checksum doesn't ensure IPv6 address integrity. But this 
>> integrity can be ensured at tunnel exit by checking that CNPs do preserve 
>> checksum neutrality. This can be clarified by a complement in the 4rd-u 
>> security section.
>>  
>>  
>> 1. this introduces another new semantics/logic of protocol stack processing 
>> at exit CE. it is really hard to call it either IPv4 or IPv6. 
> 
> How it is called is IMHO secondary, what is a fact is that it ensures address 
> security. 
>  
>> 2. even though this CNP works for the address integrity,
> 
> (which was the listed point)
> 
>> unfortunately, however, the checksum still provides integrity protection for 
>> packet length and payload protocol type in both IPv4/ICMPv4 pair and 
>> IPv6/ICMPv6 pair. they are involved either in IPv4 header checksum or in 
>> ICMPv6 checksum, which covers the pseudo-header of IPv6. 
> 
> 
>> how could CNP protect these?
> 
> No way, of course.
> (Are we now in the technical discussion, or still in deliberate controversy?).
> 
>  
> technical discussion results in problem understanding instead of certainly a 
> support for or an objection to a work politically. so i don't understand what 
> is the so-called "deliberate controversy" here.

I supposed it was evident to you too that CNP cannot protect protocol and/or 
packet length.
Then, asking how it would do that sounded to me as a non technical question.
Sorry if this wasn't the case.  

> i suppose my draft is written very neutral.

Full of good level technical analysis, I am pleased to acknowledge.
Although I believe anyone asked to guess whether you are in favor of 4rd or MAP 
would easily find the answer, I can also acknowledge that the draft is neutral 
to a good enough extent.


> as you raised a new solution regarding a concern while i found it not 
> complete, i surely need to confirm if you would design a more comprehensive 
> solution for that issue, and if the already-designed mechanism has had the 
> functionality but i was not aware of that.
>> thanks for mentioning CNP here.
> 
>> i need to modify the concern for "address integrity" to the concern for 
>> "integrity of addresses, packet length and payload protocol type".
> 
> - Addresses have been covered AFAIAC.
> - No test scenario I can imagine can reveal an ICMPv4 security problem 
> concerning protocol type or packet length. (A simulated hardware failure 
> would AFAIK be needed, and with that, many other security problems can be 
> considered to exist.) 
>  
> => Unless you come up with new facts, end of this subject for me.
>  
>   
> i don't think it is needed to provide new facts here, at this stage.

> the test scenario is the next step. 

OK.

> the draft is purposed on clarifying these semantics and their direct impact. 
> judgment on the severity of the impacts is remained to the readers.

OK.

> i don't think 4rd-u is scoped within networks with reliable L2 links, isn't 
> it?

It is scoped under the common assumption that: (1) L2 isn't reliable in that it 
can loose packets; (2) L2 is reliable in that it never delivers corrupted 
packets without corruption being detected.
AFAIK, IPv6 has been specified under this assumption.

RD


> then, in a generic physical environment, one may think only address checksum 
> is enough, one may think it is not enough, one may think checksum is anyway 
> too weak to provide so-called protection, etc. --- all of these sort of 
> asserts of severity judgment are out of the scope the draft (sec 5 para 1).
>  
> fine to close this subject for me too because you have clarified "no way". 
> that's enough. a refined statement on this issue will appear in the revision.
>  
> tomorrow let me clarify another.
>  
> thanks,
> maoke
>  
>  
> 
> RD
> 
>  

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