No offense intended as I am probably the least of men on this forum: but apparently there are no experts in this scenario.
Hence the ongoing discussion. Why do we have to wait for death to respond to a question in this country? Greg Living Water Fire Protection, LLC 1160 McKenzie Road Cantonment, FL 32533 850-937-1850 Fax: 850-937-1852 -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John Drucker Sent: Monday, August 13, 2007 7:57 AM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: boat storage Craig, Ever heard the saying, "Code Books are History Books written in Blood" ? That defines reactive thinking. As far as boat storage goes, or for that matter any building or structure, the public expects the fire department to save lives and preserve property. While the fire service's primary focus is life safety we are nonetheless expected to make an attempt at saving property. Ironically the fully involved job's present the lower risk to firefighters, put up the master streams and pour on the water. Yes there have been firefighter deaths at these, however the majority occur when firefighters have to enter a building or structure. Charleston was an example of this. The original call was an outside fire to the rear of the building. As we now know the fire entered the building requiring firefighters to mount an interior attack. What happened to those men is written in stone. Had fire sprinklers been installed the fire department would most likely have written "Exterior Rubbish Fire with Minor Damage/Extension to the Adjacent Structure", instead they wrote "Fully Involved Structure Fire with Fire Service Casualties". One boat on fire on the third tier of the rack requiring firefighters to get up close and personal is the hazard. How should they be sprinklered, well we'll leave that to the experts. John Drucker Fire Protection Subcode Official (AHJ) Fire Officer/Firefighter New Jersey Safe Buildings Save Lives ! -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, August 13, 2007 8:32 AM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: boat storage Unless there's a major fire event at a structure like this there will in all likelihood not be any serious testing or modeling of how to protect them. Few people will become outraged at a dock fire, (well except the owners of boats stored) so unless there is another Charleston type incident at one of these storage facilities why would any insurance or code agency expend the effort to force a change in what's already in place? It seems in many case that code changes are more reactive than proactive. Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection Group Mechanical Department CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.lg.com -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Greg McGahan Sent: Friday, August 10, 2007 2:49 PM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: boat storage Because at this point in time the philosophy is to build a cheap structure and rake in money. Add Hi X foam would add a tremendous amount of money to the structure with the huge open doors that are open almost all of the time that would have to automatically close, etc. Would there also be an environmental concern being, oddly enough for these facilities, right on the water? The only way this will get resolved is to make it code to do "whatever", otherwise they will keep building the cheap buildings and we will keep discussing it. The truth is that someone has to protect them and somebody is going to design them. Do we leave these to the "low ballers" and unscrupulous companies doing the absolute minimum? Or do we try to do something that would arguably be at least "better"? How bout this argument from Matt? "NFPA 303 states protect in accordance with 13 for plastics with solid shelves. If we follow that and layout based on Chapter 12, do we not fall under the umbrella of NFPA?" Living Water Fire Protection, LLC 1160 McKenzie Road Cantonment, FL 32533 850-937-1850 Fax: 850-937-1852 -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ford, Charles Sent: Friday, August 10, 2007 12:52 PM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: boat storage Thom, I'm with you on this Hi_X! . I suggested it last time we had this discussion and got no nibbles on my bait. I'd like to see some tests tho. Burton Ford SET, CFPS Member AFAA [EMAIL PROTECTED] 267-487-1000 Fax 267-487-1010 This e-mail transmission contains information that is intended to be confidential and privileged. If you receive this e-mail and you are not a named addressee you are hereby notified that you are not authorized to read, print, retain, copy or disseminate this communication without the consent of the sender and that doing so is prohibited and may be unlawful. Please reply to the message immediately by informing the sender that the message was misdirected. After replying, please delete and otherwise erase it and any attachments from your computer system. Your assistance in correcting this error is appreciated. Thank you. Cintas Corporation -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Thom McMahon Sent: Friday, August 10, 2007 1:46 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: boat storage I have always thought that this is a storage configuration that beg's for a High Expansion Foam Solution. Lighter than water, tends to fill all the readily accessible spaces including cockpits and under boats. Works for fuel fires and would seem to work for most "Resin based fiber Glass" fires as well. Fairly easy clean up, and containment might even be possible with those hanging strip clear curtains the forklift can drive thru. Anybody on the HiX committee have any words of caution? (I'll probably never see another one of these, here, but they're interesting none the less.) Thom McMahon Firetech, Inc. 2560 Copper Ridge Dr Steamboat Springs, CO 80488-2136 Tel: 970-879-7952 Fax: 970-879-7926 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Greg McGahan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Friday, August 10, 2007 9:01 AM Subject: RE: boat storage > True that. > > Some of the steel people are beginning to figure the weight of the water > in > the rack design. > > This issue MUST be addressed and put to rest by the IBC, NFPA, FM or > someone soon, or I think disaster is in the wings. > > I have no replies with successful saves IN a boat storage facility from > this > forum. > > Greg > > Living Water Fire Protection, LLC > 1160 McKenzie Road > Cantonment, FL 32533 > 850-937-1850 > Fax: 850-937-1852 > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Roland > Huggins > Sent: Friday, August 10, 2007 9:56 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: boat storage > > The issue is not boats in a berth sitting in the water. That one is > simple since it is just a building covering a low level of storage. > He is asking about boats stored on racks several levels high. It's a > nasty item. No contractor in their right mind should attempt to > DESIGN it. Even with the engineers copying designs from contractors > in the Florida panhandle, LEAVE IT TO THE ENGINEER. Now I can say no > engineer in their right mind would touch it unless the client was > willing to make some very limiting modifications to the layout of the > racks. > > Many of the facilities have adjustable racks to accommodate boats of > different heights. I've heard of people putting side wall heads in > the columns to cover the area beneath the boats. You think maybe they > were ignoring that you need the heads to activate in order for the > water throw to count as covering the area? Group A plastics on racks > with LOTS of surface area and LOTS of air flow is not a recipe for a > slow burning, modest fire. > > Speaking of racks, these also often do double duty by supporting the > roof as well as the boats. You think they include the weight of a > water filled boat as part of the load for designing the rack? > > Roland > > On Aug 9, 2007, at 2:24 PM, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >> Are you having to prove the worth of sprinklers in this type of >> installation? >> >> >> Any idea of the value of loss in storage docks WITHOUT sprinklers? >> >> >> Craig L. Prahl, CET >> Fire Protection Group >> Mechanical Department >> CH2MHILL >> Lockwood Greene >> 1500 International Drive >> PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - >> 864.599.8439 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.lg.com >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Greg >> McGahan >> Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2007 4:41 PM >> To: [email protected] >> Subject: boat storage >> >> I know this subject has been thoroughly abused so let's try a >> different angle. >> >> Does anyone know of any successful saves due to a sprinkler system in >> a boat storage facility? >> >> This issue is not going to go away and there is only going to be more >> of them built. >> >> Greg >> >> Living Water Fire Protection, LLC >> 1160 McKenzie Road >> Cantonment, FL 32533 >> 850-937-1850 >> Fax: 850-937-1852 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Sprinklerforum mailing list >> [email protected] >> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >> >> To Unsubscribe, send an email >> to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >> (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) >> _______________________________________________ >> Sprinklerforum mailing list >> [email protected] >> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >> >> To Unsubscribe, send an email to:Sprinklerforum- >> [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject >> field) >> > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) This e-mail transmission contains information that is intended to be confidential and privileged. 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