When I started our firm, I suspected that my previous contracting career would be a liability in trying to market services as a "consultant" or "designer", due to the fact that I competed against many of the sub's in this market. My assumed perception was that this would be considered an intrusion of a consulting/engineering/design practice that would be competition to the design side of design/build work. In fact, what we have managed to do is slot nicely between the contracting and design communities in so far as it relates to everyone's role in the project.
We do "bid documents" on some projects, "design-assist" on others. But we also do a significant amount of construction document packages that are delivered to architect and developer clients for bidding and construction by sprinkler subs. Contrary to my early concerns, I think that our work is generally well regarded and certainly accepted in the markets we serve, as it takes the work scope discrepancies out of the equation on bid day. The problem with 3rd party design and specification work historically has been that ME's and others who have done the work, didn't do a very good job of it. We're FAR from perfect, but we generally get it way more right than not, and there us a uniform appreciation by owners, architects, GC's and sprinkler subs that everyone's proposing on the same job come bid day. How many of us have heard the GC's in our area lament that every other trade on the board brings in a 20% bid scatter on most projects, but they can't understand why the sprinklers consistently come in with as much as a 100% spread and sometimes even more? The problem (to a great extent) resides in the mentality still held so closely and dearly by developers and general contractors that a low price is unconditionally a good thing. Personally, if I see a 100% spread on ANY type of proposal I get suspicious, but the reason that the "shortcutters" get away with it is that low prices are sexier than ever, especially in a slow housing market. These two forces work together; a low-baller can take a project on badly worded spec's and change it up to profitability and the owner never knows what hit him (or her). What's perversely funny is that the owner/developer/GC/architect walks away from the experience with a sore butt, and then do the exact same thing on the next project. I think it was Einstein who said that one definition of insanity is to repeat the same action over and over while expecting a different result. Steve Leyton Protection Design & Consulting -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Greg McGahan Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2007 9:25 AM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Contractor or Consultant WOW, if we did not bid this way we would conservatively bid 45% of the jobs incorrectly (due to incorrect drawings), 5% correctly and we would just not bid the other 50% because there is no criteria to go by. We do lose some work to the shortcutters and it stinks. Greg Living Water Fire Protection, LLC 1160 McKenzie Road Cantonment, FL 32533 850-937-1850 Fax: 850-937-1852 -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2007 10:56 AM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Contractor or Consultant How can anyone put a bid together without having some criteria to follow? If each contractor comes up with his own scheme the bids would be meaningless since you probably won't have apples to apples to compare. I would be very leery of that whole deal. They can shortcut the process and just put some sprinklers in the room and come out real cheap but all the while not have a system that would be worth anything. But they can low-ball the bid and then come back after the contract is signed to negotiate the change order for what the Underwriter really wants and what will really work. If you try to do it the right way you probably won't be low bidder and most owners reviewing the bids won't know the difference between one bid or the other, they'll just be looking at the price. You just can't win in those types of situations, and have to ask yourself if it's even worth the time and effort. Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection Group Mechanical Department CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.lg.com -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Dewayne Martinez Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2007 11:43 AM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Contractor or Consultant I am asking as a contractor. In Wisconsin, the fire protection contractor is often asked to determine the design criteria for projects. I have argued with my superiors that if it is out of our area of expertise, we should consult a professional engineer to provide a design criteria. They tell me that it is just for a bid and that companies x,y,z have put together numbers without consulting a professional. I still have trouble believing in the "just wing it" theory of sales. Sorry for the rant.... Dewayne -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Roland Huggins Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2007 10:24 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: Contractor or Consultant Are you asking as a CONTRACTOR or a CONSULTANT? Our industry often blurrs that line without considering the ramifications (ie type and amount of insurance, whether your current insurance actually covers making that decision, etc). When someone ask WHAT KIND OF SYSTEM should be used, does the Forum consider that a contractor or a consultant question? Roland On Dec 5, 2007, at 6:52 AM, Dewayne Martinez wrote: > We have been asked to provide a quote for fire protection of a room > (80' > x 25' x 50' high) that contains 2 very large oil-cooled transformers. > This room is located inside an unheated steel manufacturing building. > The entire building right now is unsprinklered. The insurer for the > business has requested fire protection for the room containing the > transformers only. I read an article that suggested using NFPA 15 and > provide exposure protection but it also stated that oil-filled > transformers should be located outside the building. What is the best > way to protect this room? Is fire protection now required thought the > building? > Thanks, > Dewayne > > _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
