In Vietnam we used White Phosphorus bombs (known as "Willie Pete"). You cannot put it out with water. Mike Brown
-----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Rosemary Beers Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2008 3:57 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Ordinary chemical plants? My son just did his chemistry report on Phosphorus - his mobile had a tube of toothpaste on it. Some phosphorus can not even be transported other than in water. Out of water well - you do not want to be anywhere near. Yet it is some toothpastes. Point well taken. -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2008 1:38 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Ordinary chemical plants? Toothpaste, uh, you'd die if you knew some of the stuff that goes into making some of our "non-hazardous" household products. Pharmaceuticals can use some highly toxic and flammable materials in the process if not in the actual commodity. Some of the chemicals used are used to cause certain reactions and are then discarded and not actually part of the end product but they are in the process. That's why you've got to know the process not just the end product. Some pharmaceuticals and food products have used acetone, hot oils, heat transfer fluids (class III's) above their flash points, ethylene oxide, and the list goes on. Again it's hard to make any assumptions when it comes to these kinds of facilities. So while a chemical plant could be OH2, they are kind of like unicorns. Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection Group Mechanical Department CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.ch2m.com -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of A.P.Silva Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2008 2:11 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Ordinary chemical plants? There could be chemical plants that are OH2. Say a plant manufacturing medical drugs. That would also be a chemical plant. If the processed material and products are non-hazardous, it could be OH2. Say a plant that manufactures toothpaste. I have no clue regarding materials involved. But if they are non-hazardous, could qualify for OH2. NFPA 45 for chemical laboratories classify labs OH1 and OH2 depending on the lab classification. The key is what are the material involved? Tony -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Todd Williams - FPDC Sent: March 6, 2008 11:15 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Ordinary chemical plants? I'm glad to see others seem to be thinking along the same lines. This is the second design-build chemical facility project this year with no engineering or insurance company input and no company policies on fire protection other than 'code says we need sprinklers'. Let me pose this: if there is no such thing as an 'ordinary chemical plant' and they all require specific engineering analysis per NFPA 30, is NFPA doing a disservice by including this in 13? Anybody can read that statement and decide that a facility is an ordinary chemical plant and protect it as OH2 when it should be analyzed and could be a lot higher. Don't mean to dis the sprinkler bible, but this type of statement could have some unintended consequences. At 12:07 PM 3/6/2008, you wrote: >I have never done a chemical processing facility that fell under NFPA >13 and never an OH occupancy. Usually they fall under NFPA 30 or a more >stringent and specific FM criteria. Each plant requires a detailed >hazards analysis of the process, equipment types and purpose, MSDS info >as well as building construction among other issues to determine the >proper protection approach. > >The other issue is that there are new technologies being born every day. >Each new product being used or produced doesn't always have a page of >it's own in the code. So it takes some homework and detailed analysis >when it comes to determining fire protection criteria for these kinds >of facilities. > >"Ya gotta love it!" > > >Craig L. Prahl, CET >Fire Protection Group >Mechanical Department >CH2MHILL >Lockwood Greene >1500 International Drive >PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - >864.599.8439 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.ch2m.com > >-----Original Message----- >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Todd >Williams - FPDC >Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2008 11:26 AM >To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org >Subject: Ordinary chemical plants? > >In NFPA 13, under the section describing OH2 occupancies, they mention >"Chemical plants - ordinary". What is an ordinary chemical plant? > >Todd G. Williams, PE >Fire Protection Design/Consulting >Stonington, Connecticut >www.fpdc.com >860.535.2080 >_______________________________________________ >Sprinklerforum mailing list >Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org >http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > >To Unsubscribe, send an email >to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >(Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) >_______________________________________________ >Sprinklerforum mailing list >Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org >http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > >To Unsubscribe, send an email >to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >(Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) Todd G. Williams, PE Fire Protection Design/Consulting Stonington, Connecticut www.fpdc.com 860.535.2080 _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
