Ron, I think the water districts in our area all use one inch taps off the main regardless. I personally haven't been on any that were changed. If it others in the office have had this experience I've missed it. On the technical side, the 5/8 x 3/4 and 1 x 1 meter use the same main tap. Changing would not be difficult.
The non-tech side is the old issue of system development fees. But lets start another thread if we want to discuss that. Yours, Bruce V. -------------- Original message ---------------------- From: "Ron Greenman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Bruce, > > Meter setters seem to be a big problem. Any experience/comments with these? > > On Tue, Apr 15, 2008 at 11:06 PM, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > Dear List, > > > > Reading this stream of thought I have lost track of what the concerns are > with this test. Is it the time it takes? Is it the difficulty of correcting > the > problem when the test fails? > > > > We have learned a number of things by witnessing these tests. > > > > Sometimes PRV's are upstream of the "T" separating the domestic and > > sprinkler > lines. These have caused the system to fail to be able to deliver the design > flow. Usually the PRV can be moved to the domestic side of the "T". > > > > As was mentioned by some writers systems installed not to plans have > > caused > systems to fail to be able to deliver the design flow. This was particularly > acute when we used to see 3/4" cpvc installed. > > > > We have seen systems fail to deliver the design flows due to undergrounds > > not > installed as the sprinkler designer showed. Of course this crosses trade > lines. > It is unclear if the sprinkler contractor has had direct contact with the > plumbing contractor. > > > > We used to commonly see systems fail to flow the design flow due to debris > > in > the heads. The sprinkler contractors back flushed the systems to get debris > out. As a pattern was observed we talked with the building inspectors. We > discovered that normal plumbing supply lines, or underground from our point > of > view, are not flushed. The observation is that material just passes through > plumbing fixtures.* We now require a UG flush. It is common to see material > come out of the line that would not pass a sprinkler head. > > > > Yours, > > > > Bruce Verhei > > > > > > * If any one out there is having a home built, I think I'd recommend a > > flush > of the plumbing supply prior to connection. My plumbing inspectors might be > right about debris passing through most fixtures. I am not so sure of the > fridge ice maker, or the dishwasher supply. When I say we see debris > sometimes, > I mean we almost always see some if a trial flush hasn't been done before we > get > there. bv > > > > > > > > > > -------------- Original message ---------------------- > > From: "Matthew J. Willis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > I think it is great that some of the best sprinkler minds in the world, > with > > > access to the latest technology, can have such an informative and > > elaborate > > > discussion over a 5 gallon bucket. We do require this type of test on > > > another system... Do we not do partial flooding test (or full flooding if > > > the system isn't shut off quick enough)on our High X foam systems? As > > Cliff > > > pointed out, the pipe or walls shown on the drawings and calcs, are not > > > necessarily the ones that end up in the building. > > > > > > R/ > > > > > > Matt > > > > > > Matthew J. Willis > > > Living Water Fire Protection, LLC. > > > 1160 McKenzie Rd. > > > PO Box 877 > > > Cantonment, FL. 32533 > > > 850-937-1850 Voice > > > 850-937-1852 Facsimile > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > > > > ----- >-----Original Message----- > > > ----- >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > ----- >[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On > > > ----- >Behalf Of Chris Cahill > > > ----- >Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2008 1:25 PM > > > ----- >To: [email protected] > > > ----- >Subject: RE: What is a Bucket Test? (TIA Needed) > > > ----- > > > > ----- >So the implied assumption is we will apparently by > > > ----- >default accept systems designed by incompetent, > > > ----- >untrained designers and installed by incompetent > > > ----- >untrained installers and approved by incompetent AHJ's? > > > ----- >I don't like the premise of that. Perhaps we need a > > > ----- >better system to weed out the incompetence. > > > ----- > > > > ----- >But thinking more is this any different in what is > > > ----- >currently going on in the commercial side or large > > > ----- >residential side? I'd argue adding homes will make it > > > ----- >no worse or better. There are plenty of trunk slammer. > > > ----- > > > > ----- >And unless the premise is wrong (that there is an > > > ----- >abundance of incompetence > > > ----- >already) nothing in this discussion has shed light on > > > ----- >why not do all systems (13D, 13R and 13)? Every > > > ----- >argument for tests in 13D has the same reasoning that > > > ----- >could be applied to any system. How many AHJ's can tell > > > ----- >the difference between 1 1/2" and 2"? I know a few can > > > ----- >read but at more than a few feet even that is tough. > > > ----- >Easy substitution and I'd bet you'd get away with it 8 > > > ----- >out of 10 times. Bucket test would reveal that. And > > > ----- >the sad part is IMHO > > > ----- >13D's are the easiest to get right. I mean the hazard > > > ----- >is defined, obstructions are basically not an issue, we > > > ----- >only sprinkler about 1/2 the rooms, no attics or trusses. > > > ----- > > > > ----- >This isn't meant to pick on you or Reliable but why do > > > ----- >you sell heads to incompetent companies? Same could be > > > ----- >asked of all the suppliers. You're just the lucky one > > > ----- >man enough to be here on a regular basis. > > > ----- > > > > ----- >I certainly can't go buy a kitchen hood system without > > > ----- >training from the manufactures which I presume > > > ----- >demonstrates competence. If you don't take offense, > > > ----- >again none meant, could this be an interesting > > > ----- >discussion point. > > > ----- > > > > ----- >Chris Cahill, P.E. > > > ----- >Fire Protection Engineer > > > ----- >Sentry Fire Protection, Inc. > > > ----- > > > > ----- >763-658-4483 > > > ----- >763-658-4921 fax > > > ----- > > > > ----- >Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > ----- > > > > ----- >Mail: P.O. Box 69 > > > ----- > Waverly, MN 55390 > > > ----- > > > > ----- >Location: 4439 Hwy 12 SW > > > ----- > Waverly, MN 55390 > > > ----- >-----Original Message----- > > > ----- >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > ----- >[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On > > > ----- >Behalf Of Mike Brown > > > ----- >(TECH- GVL) > > > ----- >Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2008 12:18 PM > > > ----- >To: [email protected] > > > ----- >Subject: RE: What is a Bucket Test? (TIA Needed) > > > ----- > > > > ----- >John > > > ----- >If you are working in an environment where the projects > > > ----- >are designed by competent, trained designers and > > > ----- >installed by competent trained installers there may not > > > ----- >be a concern that the installation will perform the way > > > ----- >it is designed. However, should residential sprinklers > > > ----- >be mandated the demand for design and installation will > > > ----- >become much greater than most of our approval agencies > > > ----- >and contractors will be able to handle. The is more > > > ----- >true in residential situation where the market may be > > > ----- >flooded with "trunk slammers" > > > ----- >or unqualified companies doing the residential work. You > > > ----- >would be surprised at the number of sprinkler > > > ----- >contractors that had failures when Cobb County first > > > ----- >started requiring the "Put the Water in The Bucket". In > > > ----- >many parts of the country the AHJ may know little or > > > ----- >nothing about hydraulics and pretty much approve what is > > > ----- >put in front of him. The Fire Service will also > > > ----- >experience shortages of trained inspectors if installing > > > ----- >residential sprinkler is mandated for single family > > > ----- >homes. Several large installer in GA had problems > > > ----- >passing the test when they were first started. > > > ----- > > > > ----- >Like Cliff, I have said my three dollars worth. By the > > > ----- >way please purchase my two books from AFSA: The > > > ----- >leadership Ladder", and "Estimating, Bidding, Selling > > > ----- >and Contracting for Fire Sprinklers." > > > ----- > > > > ----- >I need to money to retire. > > > ----- > > > > ----- >Michael L. Brown > > > ----- >Manager of Technical Services > > > ----- >The Reliable Automatic Sprinkler Company, Inc.' > > > ----- >[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > ----- >www.reliablesprinkler.com > > > ----- >(864) 843-5228 > > > ----- > > > > ----- > > > > ----- >-----Original Message----- > > > ----- >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > ----- >[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On > > > ----- >Behalf Of John Drucker > > > ----- >Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2008 11:57 AM > > > ----- >To: [email protected] > > > ----- >Subject: RE: What is a Bucket Test? (TIA Needed) > > > ----- > > > > ----- >Thanks Mike, > > > ----- > > > > ----- >I understand the concept, however what if a) the job is > > > ----- >installed to plan & calcs b) the job is installed to > > > ----- >revised plans & calcs. ? What I'm getting at is the > > > ----- >need for the bucket test if the plans and calcs > > > ----- >demonstrate compliance. > > > ----- > > > > ----- > > > > ----- >What I'm getting at is just how reliable are hydraulic > > > ----- >calcs ? On the surface the bucket test implies that > > > ----- >hydraulic calculations in of themselves are not to be > > > ----- >relied on and that proof of hydraulic performance is > > > ----- >neccesary. If that's the case how about 13R and 13 > > > ----- >Systems ?. Its not a water supply "connection" issue > > > ----- >since a main > > > ----- >drain test is the accepted method to validate this. > > > ----- >While the bucket test also performs this function, the > > > ----- >need to measure performance in the area of operation > > > ----- >serves no other purpose then to validate hydraulic > > > ----- >design. If it's the installation, i.e. obstructions, > > > ----- >pipe size, sprinkler heads we're concerned about we need > > > ----- >to be flow testing beyond the area of operation. > > > ----- > > > > ----- >Lastly theres nothing in our adopted codes or standards > > > ----- >that require a "bucket test". Frankly a contractor would > > > ----- >well be within their right to appeal my decision to > > > ----- >require such a test. Don't take that as I don't believe > > > ----- >theres some validity to "bucket tests", I do, but theres > > > ----- >nothing for me to hang my enforcement hat on and we all > > > ----- >know how contractors insist on "show me in the code." > > > ----- > > > > ----- >Sincerely, > > > ----- > > > > ----- >John Drucker > > > ----- >Fire Protection Subcode Official (AHJ) > > > ----- >New Jersey > > > ----- > > > > ----- >Safe Buildings Save Lives ! > > > ----- > > > > ----- > > > > ----- > > > > ----- >-----Original Message----- > > > ----- >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > ----- >[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On > > > ----- >Behalf Of Mike Brown (TECH- GVL) > > > ----- >Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2008 11:19 AM > > > ----- >To: [email protected] > > > ----- >Subject: RE: What is a Bucket Test? (TIA Needed) > > > ----- > > > > ----- >John > > > ----- >You start with a set of approved plans with the > > > ----- >hydraulic calculations and a permit. There would be > > > ----- >various stages of inspection depending on the local fire > > > ----- >marshal and the "Bucket" test would be before cover up > > > ----- >of the pipe and fittings. If there have been changes > > > ----- >made to the piping,they should show up on an as-built > > > ----- >drawing (as-built drawings are difficult to get correct > > > ----- >even with commercial systems). The bucket test would at > > > ----- >least insure that the remote sprinklers flow the minimum > > > ----- >water as per the hydraulic calculations. > > > ----- > > > > ----- > > > > ----- >Michael L. Brown > > > ----- >Manager of Technical Services > > > ----- >The Reliable Automatic Sprinkler Company, Inc.' > > > ----- >[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > ----- >www.reliablesprinkler.com > > > ----- >(864) 843-5228 > > > ----- > > > > ----- >-----Original Message----- > > > ----- >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > ----- >[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On > > > ----- >Behalf Of John Drucker > > > ----- >Sent: Monday, April 14, 2008 4:03 PM > > > ----- >To: [email protected] > > > ----- >Subject: RE: What is a Bucket Test? (TIA Needed) > > > ----- > > > > ----- >Mike, > > > ----- > > > > ----- >In addition to revised plans and hydraulic calculations > > > ----- >where the job wasn't installed to the original plan ? > > > ----- > > > > ----- >John Drucker > > > ----- >Fire Protection Subcode Official (AHJ) > > > ----- >New Jersey > > > ----- > > > > ----- > > > > ----- >-----Original Message----- > > > ----- >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > ----- >[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On > > > ----- >Behalf Of Mike Brown (TECH- GVL) > > > ----- >Sent: Monday, April 14, 2008 3:56 PM > > > ----- >To: [email protected] > > > ----- >Subject: RE: What is a Bucket Test? (TIA Needed) > > > ----- > > > > ----- >I agree with Thom in that, as we are getting closer to > > > ----- >mandated fire sprinklers in single family homes, the > > > ----- >potential for a large number of new contractors, > > > ----- >plumbers, and assorted others (some of whom may well be > > > ----- >trunk slammers) will be jumping on the bandwagon. As I > > > ----- >remember when we were getting a licensing law in > > > ----- >Georgia, we had to exempt single family homes in order > > > ----- >to get any kind of law. In some states there is still > > > ----- >no law at all. (New York State for example has no > > > ----- >licensing law.) This influx of new sprinkler installers > > > ----- >may not be well versed sprinkler installation. A "Put > > > ----- >the Water in the Bucket" test might well be a good > > > ----- >control measure to protect the potential home owner as > > > ----- >well as protecting the image of our industry. I would > > > ----- >think that a test like this might be included in the > > > ----- >next edition of NFPA 13D. > > > ----- > > > > ----- >At least, when I see some of the questions that I get > > > ----- >from some sprinkler contractors and a lot of engineers, > > > ----- >a field test like this could give us some degree of > > > ----- >quality control. That would be a good thing. > > > ----- > > > > ----- >Something to consider. > > > ----- > > > > ----- >Michael L. Brown, P.L.L. (Peon Low Life) Manager of > > > ----- >Technical Services The Reliable Automatic Sprinkler > > > ----- >Company, Inc.' > > > ----- >[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > ----- >www.reliablesprinkler.com > > > ----- >(864) 843-5228 > > > ----- > > > > ----- >-----Original Message----- > > > ----- >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > ----- >[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On > > > ----- >Behalf Of Thom McMahon > > > ----- >Sent: Monday, April 14, 2008 1:39 PM > > > ----- >To: [email protected] > > > ----- >Subject: Re: What is a Bucket Test? (TIA Needed) > > > ----- > > > > ----- >This "TEST" was a conditional method when 13D was new. I > > > ----- >have not seen a bucket test that failed, when required, > > > ----- >in the last 15 years. > > > ----- >AHJ's are more savvy, Contractors are more cautious, and > > > ----- >know that the field guys will be adding ells. Some just > > > ----- >add extra ells in the calc's and others don't use the > > > ----- >full residual pressure as allowed in 13D. Maybe the > > > ----- >bucket test would be ok if hydraulic calc's are not > > > ----- >required, but is a waste of time and money for Qualified > > > ----- > Designers and layout Tech's, Installers, and AHJ's. > > > ----- > > > > ----- >Thom McMahon > > > ----- >Firetech, Inc. > > > ----- >2560 Copper Ridge Dr > > > ----- >Steamboat Springs, CO 80488-2136 > > > ----- >Tel: 970-879-7952 > > > ----- >Fax: 970-879-7926 > > > ----- >----- Original Message ----- > > > ----- >From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > ----- >To: <[email protected]> > > > ----- >Sent: Monday, April 14, 2008 10:05 AM > > > ----- >Subject: RE: What is a Bucket Test? (TIA Needed) > > > ----- > > > > ----- > > > > ----- >> Perhaps it is time to incorporate a bucket test > > > ----- >requirement and test > > > ----- >> method into 13D prior to the widespread installation > > > ----- >of these systems > > > ----- >> based on an ICC code change. If failures are > > > ----- >widespread I think this > > > ----- >> is important enough for a TIA if there's any chance > > > ----- >the ICC will > > > ----- >> reference a current edition of 13D. The implications > > > ----- >are huge if > > > ----- >> large numbers of 13D systems are expected to fail after being > > > ----- >> engineered and installed by qualified > > > ----- >plumbers/sprinkler companies. > > > ----- >> > > > ----- >> Bill Brooks > > > ----- >> > > > ----- >> William N. Brooks, P.E. > > > ----- >> Brooks Fire Protection Engineering Inc. > > > ----- >> 372 Wilett Drive > > > ----- >> Severna Park, MD 21146 > > > ----- >> 410-544-3620 Phone > > > ----- >> 410-544-3032 FAX > > > ----- >> 412-400-6528 Cell > > > ----- >> > > > ----- >> -------- Original Message -------- > > > ----- >> Subject: RE: What is a Bucket Test? > > > ----- >> From: "Tom Duross" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > ----- >> Date: Mon, April 14, 2008 11:05 am > > > ----- >> To: <[email protected]> > > > ----- >> > > > ----- >> Back in the late eighties and early nineties, > > > ----- >virtually every D and R > > > ----- >> system we did or designed got a bucket test. I still > > > ----- >have my graduated > > > ----- > > > > ----- >> buckets and pendent tubes we used. There's a couple of > > > ----- >towns here in > > > ----- >> MA that still require them. I don't remember being > > > ----- >waived on an R > > > ----- >> multi-family system back when they were all following > > > ----- >what the Cobb > > > ----- >> Cty. Chief advised. I seem to remember every one of > > > ----- >these systems were > > > ----- > > > > ----- >> being bucket tested. We never failed a single one but > > > ----- >I know some did. > > > ----- >> > > > ----- >> Tom Duross > > > ----- >> Go Red Sox > > > ----- >> :) > > > ----- >> > > > ----- >> I personally don't design SFDs but have seen sprinkler > > > ----- >plans for many > > > ----- >> of them (and I stayed at a Holiday Inn last night). > > > ----- >The architectural, > > > ----- > > > > ----- >> structural, mechanical plans, etc. are generally very > > > ----- >simple and > > > ----- >> lacking the type of detail you'd expect on a > > > ----- >commercial project. > > > ----- >> Likewise, the sprinkler plans tend to be simple - > > > ----- >mains & branchlines > > > ----- >> drawn as nice strait lines with few or no offsets. > > > ----- >Then you get to the > > > ----- > > > > ----- >> jobsite and, 'Hey, where'd that duct come from. Gotta > > > ----- >90 around it." > > > ----- >> "Hey, who added the vaulted ceiling, gotta add a > > > ----- >couple 90's to get > > > ----- >> above it." > > > ----- >> > > > ----- >> I can think of 2 basic reasons a sprinkler system > > > ----- >would fail a bucket > > > ----- >> test. > > > ----- >> 1) Out of necessity, the fitter installed more pipe & > > > ----- >fittings than > > > ----- >> the designer calced for. > > > ----- >> 2) The underground supply isn't as hydraulically > > > ----- >friendly as it's > > > ----- >> supposed to be. Small diameter copper (especially the > > > ----- >coiled type) is > > > ----- >> notorious for being installed with seemingly minor > > > ----- >kinks that restrict > > > ----- > > > > ----- >> water flow. > > > ----- >> Pressure losses through meters can be significantly > > > ----- >more than many > > > ----- >> calcs allow for. > > > ----- >> > > > ----- >> This takes me back to a recent thread concerning code > > > ----- >changes that > > > ----- >> will require sprinkler installation in all new SFDs. > > > ----- >Just like in Cobb > > > ----- > > > > ----- >> County, THERE WILL BE A LEARNING CURVE for the new > > > ----- >installation > > > ----- >> contractors (sprinkler, plumber, or whatever). > > > ----- >Designers need to allow > > > ----- > > > > ----- >> for extra pipe & fitting. Installers need to think > > > ----- >ahead & coordinate > > > ----- >> so extra pipe & fittings are kept to a minimum. > > > ----- >Underground services > > > ----- >> have to be installed correctly. > > > ----- >> > > > ----- >> I personally think bucket tests on 13D installations > > > ----- >are a good thing. > > > ----- >> Nobody want to do it and nobody wants to fail it. > > > ----- >Unfortunately, as in > > > ----- > > > > ----- >> Cobb County, it becomes part of the 'training' for designers & > > > ----- >> installers. > > > ----- >> And > > > ----- >> when all SFDs require sprinklers, we're going to need > > > ----- >a lot of that. > > > ----- >> > > > ----- >> Ed Kramer > > > ----- >> Littleton, CO > > > ----- >>> Mike, > > > ----- >>> > > > ----- >>> Now we are at the heart of the matter. If the bucket > > > ----- >test results in > > > ----- >>> a surprising number of failures, what is the > > > ----- >explanation for this? Is > > > ----- > > > > ----- >>> it the way the standard is written, is the bucket > > > ----- >test technically > > > ----- >flawed? > > > ----- >>> > > > ----- >>> Seems this would be a great senior research project > > > ----- >to figure this > > > ----- >out. > > > ----- >>> I don't understand a surprisingly high failure rate > > > ----- >when system > > > ----- >>> design is performed by competent FP firms. > > > ----- >>> > > > ----- >>> Bill Brooks > > > ----- >>> > > > ----- >>> William N. Brooks, P.E. > > > ----- >>> > > > ----- >>> It was surprising the number of systems that failed > > > ----- >when the test was > > > ----- > > > > ----- >>> preformed. > > > ----- >>> > > > ----- >>> > > > ----- >> > > > ----- >> _______________________________________________ > > > ----- >> Sprinklerforum mailing list > > > ----- >> [email protected] > > > ----- >> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > > ----- >> > > > ----- >> To Unsubscribe, send an email > > > ----- >> to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > ----- >> (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > > ----- >> > > > ----- >> > > > ----- >> _______________________________________________ > > > ----- >> Sprinklerforum mailing list > > > ----- >> [email protected] > > > ----- >> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > > ----- >> > > > ----- >> To Unsubscribe, send an email > > > ----- >> to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > ----- >> (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > > ----- >> > > > ----- >> > > > ----- > > > > ----- >_______________________________________________ > > > ----- >Sprinklerforum mailing list > > > ----- >[email protected] > > > ----- >http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > > ----- > > > > ----- >To Unsubscribe, send an email > > > ----- >to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > ----- >(Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > > ----- >_______________________________________________ > > > ----- >Sprinklerforum mailing list > > > ----- >[email protected] > > > ----- >http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > > ----- > > > > ----- >To Unsubscribe, send an email > > > ----- >to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > ----- >(Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > > ----- > > > > ----- >CONFIDENTIAL AND PROPRIETARY: > > > ----- >This email message is intended only for the use of the > > > ----- >individual or entity to which it is addressed and may > > > ----- >contain information that is privileged and confidential, > > > ----- >nor is it, unless specifically stated, intended to be > > > ----- >relied upon by any person or persons other than the > > > ----- >individual or entity named above and no warranties or > > > ----- >representations are made or intended to persons or > > > ----- >entities not named above. 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