Dan,
I understand that we're just seeing it differently, and that it's
probably now a dead horse.
A couple of final points. From what I've been able to read there's
absolutely no paragraph, section, or annex note that says you must flow
14 sprinklers, configured 12 above and 2 below an obstruction when
installing an ESFR system. I'm willing to grant you that.
There is also absolutely no text in NFPA-13 which says you only flow 10
sprinklers above the obstruction and 2 below when installing an ESFR system.
In reading the text from the '02 edition, and the sections I quoted you
initially, I believe the intent of the standard is to flow 14 sprinklers
in the configuration we're discussing.
You did say one thing that made me cringe when I read it. "If 7 heads
did not suppressed the fire, 12 head would not either." I don't know
the science as well as some of the others here, but if you said that to
me across the table in a bid or design meeting I'd have to respond with
the words "prove it" before I allowed as serious a decision as the
number of flowing sprinklers in the remote area to be decided on a
statement like that.
I appreciate your perspective, and it is my hope that you never have to
defend it from the witness chair, because "it seemed logical" isn't
going to be much of a defense, imo.
Hey, how about writing to AFSA for an informal interpretation?
PARSLEY CONSULTING
Ken Wagoner, SET
760.745.6181 voice
760.745.0537 fax
[EMAIL PROTECTED] <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> e-mail
www.ParsleyConsulting.com <http://www.ParsleyConsulting.com> website
danarbel wrote:
All I'm asking for where in NFPA-13 (2007) there is a specific requirement
for 14 ESFR heads.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 05 November, 2008 3:34 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: ESFR Heads below obstructions
Really? Two heads will keep you from being competitive? That must be some
real close bidding.
Craig L. Prahl, CET
Fire Protection Specialist
Mechanical Department
CH2MHILL
Lockwood Greene
1500 International Drive
PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491
Direct - 864.599.4102
Fax - 864.599.8439
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.ch2m.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Fletcher, Ron
Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2008 8:25 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: ESFR Heads below obstructions
If you add the flow of two additional heads below obstructions you won't be
low bid. The added flow will probably drive your main sizes up a pipe size
and it may affect the fire pump as well.
It isn't all that dissimilar to storage racks. We know if racks with solid
shelves are added to a warehouse the flow for the in-rack sprinklers would
have to be added into the roof calc yet we don't make an allowance for them
in the shell system, at least we don't.
Around here TI contractors chop up ESFR systems by adding heads at demising
walls and under ducts but they don't do a new roof system calc.
I would bet that 8 out of 10 ESFR systems in Phoenix don't calc after TI but
AHJ's around here either don't care or more likely don't know.
Ron Fletcher
Aero Automatic
Phoenix, AZ
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of danarbel
Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2008 2:48 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: ESFR Heads below obstructions
Well, I read all that and it seems that all you need are 12 heads
Dan
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 04 November, 2008 7:28 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: ESFR Heads below obstructions
Dan,
All references here are from the '07 edition of NFPA-13:
14.4.4 Where ESFR sprinklers are installed above and below obstructions,
the discharge for up to two sprinklers for one of the levels shall be
included with those of the other level in the hydraulic calculations.
15.4.4 Where ESFR sprinklers are installed above and below obstructions,
the discharge for up to two sprinklers for one of the levels shall be
included with those of the other level in the hydraulic calculations.
16.2.3.5 Where ESFR sprinklers are installed above and below obstructions,
the discharge for up to two sprinklers for one of the levels shall be
included with those of the other level in the hydraulic calculations
16.3.3.6 Where ESFR sprinklers are installed above and below obstructions,
the discharge for up to two sprinklers for one of the levels shall be
included with those of the other level in the hydraulic calculations.
17.2.3.4 Where ESFR sprinklers are installed above and below obstructions,
the discharge for up to two sprinklers for one of the levels shall be
included with those of the other level in the hydraulic calculations.
17.3.3.5 Where ESFR sprinklers are installed above and below obstructions,
the discharge for up to two sprinklers for one of the levels shall be
included with those of the other level in the hydraulic calculations.
22.4.4.6.4 The requirements of 22.4.4.6.1 to include every sprinkler in the
design area to be included in the system discharge shall not apply; where
ESFR sprinklers are installed above and below obstructions, the discharge
for up to two sprinklers from one of the levels shall be included with those
of the other level in the hydraulic calculation.
Based on what I read in the ROP just published it doesn't look like any of
these have been removed, although it appears that the wording in
22.4.4.6.4 has been moved around a bit, and a new 22.4.4.6.4.1 has been
added (See 13-462, Log CP82 in the ROP)
Hope that is what you were after.
*
*PARSLEY CONSULTING
Ken Wagoner, SET
760.745.6181 voice
760.745.0537 fax
[EMAIL PROTECTED] <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> e-mail
www.ParsleyConsulting.com <http://www.ParsleyConsulting.com> website
danarbel wrote:
Question regarding the number of ESFR heads required for hydraulic
calc.
The nominal number is 12.
There was a requirement to add 2 heads if there are heads installed
below
beams or AC ducts.
If I'm not wrong the addition of 2 heads was abolished.
Please confirm or correct me,
Dan Arbel
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