I think it's time that all of us in the sprinkler community shoulder more responsibility for the conflict as it has transpired over the past 15 years, and let's try to focus on solutions instead of who's at fault for the problem. For YEARS we've been telling anyone who will listen that residential sprinklers cost $1-$2 per foot. Recent NFPA Research Foundation findings back that up, so we can pat ourselves on the back for being half-accurate. Why only half? Here' why.
2,000 SF house with a 500 SF 2-car garage that the AHJ wants sprinklered. Let's say 22 sprinklers at $125 each/installed will git'r done, so it's a $2,750 job @ $1.10 per SF. And we yell up to the heavens, "IT'S A BUCK TEN PER SQUARE FOOT!" because in our world, we measure things as "sprinklered square feet", right? The homebuilder sees a 2000 SF home at $2,750, which is $1.38 per SF, and on top of that he's got to upgrade his water meter to a 1" for which the s--theads at the water company are going to charge $6,000. So add $3/SF plus incidentals for upsizing the water line, the plumber charging for the connection point, and the electrician charging to add a circuit and wire the bell. Let's say $350 for their trouble. So the total cost to the builder for the sprinkler system PACKAGE is $9,100 or $4.55 per SF which is why he's at those same press conferences and city council meetings yelling to the heavens, "IT'S FOUR FIDDY FIVE A SQUARE FOOT AND OUR CUSTOMERS DON'T WANT TO PAY FOR IT!!" And you know what, they've been RIGHT. We've been right too, but they haven't been as wrong as we've tried to paint them because we think in a narrow field of interest and their approach is more global. As I said yesterday, I continue to have the utmost respect for NAHB and their members who oppose residential sprinklers, but I believe that the cost to our communities in terms of lives and property lost to fires is a far more compelling and significant criterion, and which outweighs the direct cost of installing fire sprinklers new construction. Forget what has been said by both sides over the past 10 years and let's get down to the task of convincing water purveyors to sell us the required water supplies and service connections at FAIR value. Steve Leyton Protection Design & Consulting San Diego, CA -----Original Message----- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Chris Cahill Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 6:00 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: leak statistic now NAHB "in what has become a deeply distressed market" yeah but their arguments haven't changed from when times were booming. If they changed the position because the market failed I'd be more sympathetic and agree to hold off to when times are better. Had a similar discussion with a peer about training. He contended times were bad and he couldn't afford to send someone to a $25 class. I pointed out that was the same argument he used when we were hitting an extra cylinders. So to him and the NAHB when is the time and if there is none it's an excuse covering the real motivation not a real issue. And if it's an excuse an honest man would stop using it or at least admit it was an excuse. And to the small builders these folks are the ones that show up to political meetings. We know the information they bring is outright false or at least exaggerated. Where do they get the information they say - from their leadership (both formal and informal) of the association. So no I don't think the leadership represents the interest of the members. I think the members follow the leaders. At best there are a few influential members that guide the leaders. I don't agree the masses guide the leaders and evidence is the "stimulus package". I would say this about nearly every association including ours. Further most members don't have the time or skill to be active. Again to our political system 1/3 that are registered don't even vote and who knows how many further aren't even registered. Chris Cahill, P.E. Fire Protection Engineer Sentry Fire Protection, Inc. 763-658-4483 763-658-4921 fax Email: chr...@sentryfiremn.com Mail: P.O. Box 69 Waverly, MN 55390 Location: 4439 Hwy 12 SW Waverly, MN 55390 -----Original Message----- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Steve Leyton Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2009 5:03 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: ***SPAMTAGPTD: Re: leak statistic But this is America, dammit, and we don't want anyone telling us what to buy and who to buy it from, right? Kinda' like labor ... eh? I've had respect for NAHB's institutionalized resistance to residential sprinklers for many years - I just ardently disagree with them on this issue. But they are a trade group, like AFSA and NFSA, and their actions must reflect the will of their members. In fairness to NAHB, the VAST majority of their members are small builders who do fewer than 20 homes per year and the perception is that if only one of their homes is made more difficult to sell - in what has become a deeply distressed market - it represents a measurable impact to their business. Instead of fighting with NAHB - which we're not really - we should be looking at the partnering opportunity with regard to the water meter and capacity fee issues nationwide. THAT'S the major impediment to "affordable" residential sprinkler systems, along with haywire AHJ requirements for sprinklered attics and OH garages. Steve Leyton Protection Design & Consulting San Diego, CA -----Original Message----- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of George Church Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2009 2:36 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: ***SPAMTAGPTD: Re: leak statistic Well, they know our checking acct # since we belong to the NAHB and use their health insurance- heckuva value. It's too bad they don't treat us like the central vac folks- Just something else where someone else does the work, they can mark it up and make money on it. DUH. -----Original Message----- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of te...@protectiondesign.com Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2009 4:05 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: ***SPAMTAGPTD: Re: leak statistic George George George. The NAHB probably has the password to your computer.. T Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: "George Church" <for...@ptd.net> Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2009 12:46:04 To: <sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org> Subject: RE: leak statistic Shall we forward this over to the NAHB or should we assume they're already monitoring us? -----Original Message----- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org <mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org> ] On Behalf Of Matthew J. Willis Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2009 3:15 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: leak statistic Interestingly enough, FM Data sheet 8-21, Roll Paper storage, has a 15 year study of loss. This is broken down by fire, sprinkler leakage, water damage and a few others. Sprinkler Leakage was second highest at 24.7% of total loss. R/ Matt Matthew J. Willis Norred Fire Systems L.L.C. 318-387-1134 Voice 318-387-1163 Facsimile m...@norredfire.com -----Original Message----- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org <mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org> ] On Behalf Of å... .... Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2009 1:20 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: leak statistic All due respect Joe, I know you forgot more than i ever will know. but to say "there is no way" sounds a bit... well, too absolute. i don't believe in ever's, never's and forever's with most things. even if we developed a zero-point-one order model it would be better than simply throwing our hands up, again. just thinking out loud, but that 0.1 order model could begin with insurance company claims that were made and substantiated. sampling is a common tool of statistics. Statistics is as much an art as some geotechnics and fire protection, yet statistics has got us to leptons and hadrons. One need not inventory the entire population, to get a pulse on what is happening. i won't believe, but i still want to hear, what the numbers are that are out there. scot deal excelsior fire engineering And yes, i thank you and Steve and Thom and all for keeping me honest. but I am not trying to cheat on ya. _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum <http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum> For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum <http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum> For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum <http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum> For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 3865 (20090218)__________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com <http://www.eset.com> _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 3866 (20090218) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
