Cut to the chase. 13R exists solely to get sprinklers into buildings of residential construction where the hazard is not too great (four stories and less) at a cost that made it attractive to do, a compromise if you will, back in the days when sprinklers were only in commercial buildings and sprinklering cracker-box apartments, migrant labor dormitories and cheap hotels was,to coin an NAHB phrase, "too expensive." Well, it's done its job and it's high time we just bid it a fond farewell and sprinkler all Rs (except SFDs of course because they're mostly protected by fire alarms anyways) to 13.
On Fri, Mar 13, 2009 at 2:34 PM, John Drucker <[email protected]> wrote: > Steve, > > As you pointed out, "for certain purposes". 509.2 stipulates the purposes; > > 509.2 Group S-2 enclosed or open parking garage with Group A, B, M, R or S > above. > > "A basement and/or the first story above grade plane of a building shall be > considered AS A SEPARATE AND DISTINCT BUIDLING FOR THE PURPOSE OF > determining AREA LIMITATIONS, CONTINUITY OF FIRE WALLS, LIMITATION OF NUMBER > OF STORIES and TYPE OF CONSTRUCTION when all of the following conditions are > met;" > > IBC 509.2 does not state for the purpose of occupancy classification, thus > it is still a mixed use building. Only two things separate structures into > wholly separate buildings 1) Fire Walls, 2) Distance. > > With that said 903.3.1.2 is clear; > > [F] 903.3.1.2 NFPA 13R sprinkler systems. > WHERE ALLOWED in BUILDINGS of GROUP R, up to and including four stories in > height, automatic sprinkler systems shall be installed throughout in > accordance with NFPA 13R. > > What we are speaking of is Buildings of Group R and something else other > than an incidental use. > > The proposed scope of 13R makes it clear that 13R is not for mixed use > buildings; > > "1.1* Scope. This standard shall cover the design and installation of > automatic sprinkler systems for protection against fire hazards in > residential buildings up to and including four stories in height." > > If the intent is to allow 13R systems in the residential portions of a mixed > use building, whether a 508 or 509, then the IBC needs to be amended > accordingly. > > Sincerely > > John Drucker > Fire Protection Subcode Official > Building/Fire/Electrical Inspector > > Safe Buildings Save Lives ! > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Steve Leyton > Sent: Friday, March 13, 2009 5:12 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: RE: Mixed-Use Code Question > > I agree with you, and the TC on Residential Sprinkler Systems has adopted > language for Chapter 1 of 13R that is intended to finally clarify the > appropriate application of the standard. If ratified at the code hearing, > the standard will be applicable buildings of residential occupancy and their > accessory non-residential uses only; the only way that a single structure > would have sprinkler systems designed to different standards is if it is > fire-separated to the extent that the areas are considered separate > buildings in accordance with the building code for that construction type. > These separations may be horizontal and/or vertical. > > I've tried to transcribe Log #21, proposal 13R-2 below: > > Revise the scope of NFPA 13R to read: > > "1.1* Scope. This standard shall cover the design and installation of > automatic sprinkler systems for protection against fire hazards in > residential buildings up to and including four stories in height." > > Revise A.1.1 as amended by Proposal 13R-58, Proposal 13R-57, & Proposal > 13R-56, to read as follows: > > "A.1.1 NFPA 13R is appropriate for use only in buildings that are entirely > residential occupancies up to and including four stories in height. > Residential occupancies are defined in this standard. The height of the > building is as defined in the applicable building code. It is the intent of > this standard that if NFPA 13R is appropriate for use, that it be used > throughout the entire building. It is recognized that incidental and > accessory areas, as defined by the applicable building code, might exist > within that residential occupancy. Such incidental and > accessory areas would typically be considered by the applicable building > code to be part of the residential occupancy and subject to the requirements > for the residential occupancy by. Where buildings are greater than four > stories in height, or where buildings are of mixed use, such buildings > should be protected throughout with NFPA 13. Where structures of mixed use > can be totally separated so that a residential occupancy is considered a > separate building under the applicable building code, NFPA 13R can be used > in the building of entirely residential occupancy while NFPA 13 is used in > the other building(s). (Examples of incidental and accessory occupancies > found in residential occupancies can include: management offices, > private parking garages/areas within a dwelling unit, community laundry > rooms, clubhouses, exercise facilities, tenant > storage within a dwelling unit, etc.). > > Note, a separated mixed use structure (separated by fire-resistance rated > assemblies) is not the same as a structure with separate buildings > (separated by fire walls). However, there may be applicable building code > provisions that permit upper and lower portions of a structure, separated by > a three hour fire rated horizontal assembly, to be considered as separate > buildings for certain purposes (See 2006 NFPA 5000, Section 7.4.3.6.5 and > 2006 IBC Section 509.2)." > > > Steve Leyton > Protection Design & Consulting > San Diego, CA > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Ron Greenman > Sent: Friday, March 13, 2009 12:51 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: Mixed-Use Code Question > > Although I disagree with interpretation for horizontal fire barriers > that Jamie refers to that has been typical in many jurisdictions out > on the best coast. As others have mentioned typically the entire lower > floor is commercial with 13/horizontal fire barrier/13R above. > > On Fri, Mar 13, 2009 at 10:27 AM, Jamie Seidl <[email protected]> > wrote: >> In IBC land, there is Separated and Non-separated mixed use. Non > separated, your entire building would be full 13. In separated mixed use, > as long as the ratings meet the required separations or "separate buildings" > of the code, (including horizontal) you can use 13 for the lower area and > 13R for the upper. There has been some contention on the designation of a > separate building and a horizontal fire barrier, but this configuration has > met the intent of the code in the jurisdictions I've dealt with. >> Jamie Seidl >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Tom Duross >> Sent: Friday, March 13, 2009 12:23 PM >> To: [email protected] >> Subject: Mixed-Use Code Question >> >> I have a question about a small project I'm bidding and how it relates to >> other's building codes. >> Four storey 8 unit residential building, in bid stage, just got > notification >> that one unit, half the ground floor, will be zoned for commercial use. >> I'm at odds if this changes the building to mixed-use or not. I've asked >> the gc if he's still applying as an R2 and he's not sure, architect in on >> vacation (go figure). I'm leafing through our building code (ICC-03) > right >> now to see if this qualifies as ancillary with regards to design (13 vs. >> 13R) but I just thought I'd ask the masses with a little time on their > hands >> how this would resolve under their current codes. Often we have similar >> provisions and interpretations and I don't have the workbook, tabs or >> supplement yet for ours. We're new to this edition. >> >> I'm able to refer to 13 for design in areas like Basements but still base >> the remainder of the system under 13R requirements and our old code gave >> little guidance as to percentages with regards to areas outside of the use >> group. I'm wondering if, disregarding permit application for now, the >> addition of one of the 8 units from residential use to commercial use > (will >> be a store) will effect the design. >> >> Tom >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Sprinklerforum mailing list >> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >> For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] >> >> To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] >> (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) >> _______________________________________________ >> Sprinklerforum mailing list >> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >> For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] >> >> To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] >> (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) >> > > > > -- > Ron Greenman > at home.... > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > > To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature > database 3935 (20090313) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > > http://www.eset.com > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > > To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > > To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > -- Ron Greenman at home.... _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
