Sorry none available. Chris
-----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Forest Wilson Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 8:22 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: antifreeze combustibility? Tonight please repeat the experiment using glycerin, then ethyl glycol. Forest Wilson -----Original Message----- From: "Chris Cahill" <[email protected]> Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 08:08:08 To: <[email protected]> Subject: RE: antifreeze combustibility? So I did some fire testing last night with PG. I used a spray bottle to see what would happen with pure and 50/50 mix. Pure sprayed into a fire definitely causes a flash of extra burning. This makes sense in the atomization and low flashpoint. Now when mixed 50/50 the same effect did not occur. There may be a contribution to the fire but it's very, very small at best. Really it appeared the spray was putting out the fire. Steam was being created as one would expect by spraying water on a fire. How realistic, I don't know. The drop size I was using was much smaller than a typical head. The rate of application was much smaller but so was my fire. I won't suggest a scaling effect but it's possible. Did this lead to fire in pure that wouldn't ordinarily be there? Maybe, probably depends on the size of the fire and the drop size in real circumstances. The other interesting thing with pure is I got some residual drops to flash. When I threw the plastic bottle in the fire that had some residual in it it flashed as if I put gasoline on the fire. Slightly delayed though while achieving the flash point. What this tells me is the possibility on a very large AF system with pure one might have a problem if the pure warms up enough before the application of the water. Bottom line is I wouldn't use pure in any circumstance. Mix I'm not so worried about. I used 50/50 because that's typical around here considering our slightly cool weather. On the slush thing below the freeze point that's apparently the difference between the freeze point and burst point. Both numbers are reported on some information sheets. The number we typically use (NFPA 13) are freeze points where in the lab is the first evidence of ice crystal formation. The burst point is much colder (-50ish) where a full solid is formed and will break things. What's nice about this is the "safety factor or tolerance" in mixing might not be so critical. There is a little play. I think it's the equivalent to the difference between flashpoint and fire point with combustible liquids. Chris Cahill, P.E. Fire Protection Engineer Sentry Fire Protection, Inc. 763-658-4483 763-658-4921 fax Email: [email protected] Mail: P.O. Box 69 Waverly, MN 55390 Location: 4439 Hwy 12 SW Waverly, MN 55390 -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of George Church Sent: Tuesday, April 21, 2009 3:19 PM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: antifreeze combustibility? And to think you could have just set it outside 2 months ago and made it solid :) Seriously, I think Noble Co would have your answers. They make a lot of premix, concentrate, both flavors, and the special Hastings style for big heads in cold places. glc -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Chris Cahill Sent: Tuesday, April 21, 2009 3:46 PM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: antifreeze combustibility? I took some 50/50 and added dry ice to bring it down to -37. Definitely slushy not frozen though it should have been. It would come out of a sprinkler head but not terribly effective. Think milk shake from McDonalds after about 20 minutes at room temperature. Chris Cahill, P.E. Fire Protection Engineer Sentry Fire Protection, Inc. 763-658-4483 763-658-4921 fax Email: [email protected] Mail: P.O. Box 69 Waverly, MN 55390 Location: 4439 Hwy 12 SW Waverly, MN 55390 -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Matthew J. Willis Sent: Tuesday, April 21, 2009 2:35 PM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: antifreeze combustibility? How about the "thickening" of the solution? R/ Matt Matthew J. Willis Norred Fire Systems L.L.C. 318-387-1134 Voice 318-387-1163 Facsimile [email protected] -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Ford, Charles Sent: Tuesday, April 21, 2009 2:20 PM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: antifreeze combustibility? Todd and others, I've heard of contractors using 100% anti-freeze on small systems 'cause " the guys aren't good at math and what harm is it?" I pointed out that freeze point rises beyond 40-50%. The flammability issue didn't occur to me. C. Burton Ford Designer- NICET Certified: Fire Alarm, Special Hazards, Sprinkler Design &Sprinkler Inspections NFPA CFPS Cintas Fire Protection-D-47 Warminster, PA 18974 Phone 267-487-1000 Fax 267-487-1010 -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Todd Williams Sent: Tuesday, April 21, 2009 3:12 PM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: antifreeze combustibility? This all begs a lot more questions: 1. Has this scenario be reproduced in a lab or other controlled environment? Full scale testing? 2. How does concentration impact reaction? 3. Was the antifreeze a pre-mix solution or mixed by the contractor? 4. Does the antifreeze and water separate over time? 5. If this is an issue, why hasn't NFPA been more proactive? 6. Glycerine vs. Propylene Glycol? 7. Does is react to flame or only a heat source? At 03:02 PM 4/21/2009, you wrote: >Members, > >A settlement was reached in this matter. The public information that is >available is as follows; > >The area in question was a covered deck protected with sprinklers >utilizing antifreeze. At some point the deck was enclosed and heaters >added. Apparently the antifreeze and ordinary temperature sprinklers >remained. Heater operation resulted in sprinkler operation wherein a >"fireball" was described. > >John Drucker > > >-----Original Message----- >From: [email protected] >[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of >[email protected] >Sent: Tuesday, April 21, 2009 2:39 PM >To: [email protected] >Subject: RE: antifreeze combustibility? > >It seems curious that there was an antifreeze system close to a unit >heater. If you have an antifreeze system it would seem you don't need >the heater and vice-versa. Hopefully the additional details to follow >will answer that question also. > > > >An incident related to antifreeze occurred at the WindanSea, Highlands, > > >NJ where a sprinkler system containing antifreeze discharged in > >proximity to a unit heater. The atomized liquid was ignited by the unit > > >heater and occupants burned from the fire that resulted. > >John Hoffman P.E. | Fire Protection Engineer | Facility Engineering >Services, KCP, LLC - Burns & McDonnell Engineering | National Nuclear >Security Administration's Kansas City Plant | Operated by Honeywell FM&T >| 2000 E. 95th St | Kansas City, MO 64131 | ph 816-997-7213 > >_______________________________________________ >Sprinklerforum mailing list >http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >For Technical Assistance, send an email to: >[email protected] > >To Unsubscribe, send an email >to:[email protected] >(Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > >CONFIDENTIAL AND PROPRIETARY: >This email message is intended only for the use of the individual or >entity to which it is addressed and may contain information that is >privileged and confidential, nor is it, unless specifically stated, >intended to be relied upon by any person or persons other than the >individual or entity named above and no warranties or >representations are made or intended to persons or entities not >named above. If the reader is not the intended recipient, you are >hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of >this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received >this communication in error, please notify us immediately by >telephone, return this message to the address above and delete all >copies. Thank you. > >_______________________________________________ >Sprinklerforum mailing list >http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > >To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] >(Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) Todd G. Williams, PE Fire Protection Design/Consulting Stonington, Connecticut www.fpdc.com 860.535.2080 _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) This e-mail transmission contains information that is intended to be confidential and privileged. If you receive this e-mail and you are not a named addressee you are hereby notified that you are not authorized to read, print, retain, copy or disseminate this communication without the consent of the sender and that doing so is prohibited and may be unlawful. Please reply to the message immediately by informing the sender that the message was misdirected. After replying, please delete and otherwise erase it and any attachments from your computer system. 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