Wow, That sounds like a great idea unless you have worked for PE's and TRIED to develop shop drawings SIMULTANEOUSLY with the other disciplines. You quickly realize, that unless it is a very simple layout, the sprinkler cannot be done until the lighting is done, the diffuse layout is done, the structural is done, the civil is done and the arch is mostly done.
Doable, I am sure, feasible, hard sell to me. It is way too hard to get the info you need unless you are willing to do, redo, redo, redo......until everybody is complete. But again, that is just my experience. Greg McGahan Operations Manager Living Water Fire Protection 1160 McKenzie Road P.O. Box 877 Cantonment, Florida 32533 (850) 937.1850 | Fax (850) 937.1852 | Cell (850) 554.3231 [email protected] -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of David Blackwell Sent: Tuesday, September 22, 2009 2:14 PM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: walk in Ovens In the realm of civil engineering where I initially started, the PE generates all the drawings and calculations. The water/sewer-line contractors bid solely on installation which is very simple and clear cut lines of responsibility/liability. My personal opinion is that the system in place is at fault for a lot of the problems. I believe that the solution involves modeling a new system after the successful engineer/contractor design/installation model. NICET designers should work for the PEs with the PE responsible for preparing a detailed design of design drawings [FP-series], calculations and specifications prior to bid. The contractors should get out of the hassle of preparing the drawings and calculations and shed their NICET designers to the engineering companies who will need them [and who can use them as NSPE originally envisioned when creating NICET]. The fire protection PE should be part of the initial design team hired by the architect of record just like the other engineering disciplines of civil, mechanical, electrical, structural, etc. South Carolina State Law requires the PE be involved up front prior to bid; however, only the basic design information (not detailed drawings and calculations) is required on a state specific form created by our office, a Fire Sprinkler System Specification Sheet (FSSSS) which must be included with the bid documents. South Carolina also requires the PE review and approve the contractor's shop drawings, calculations, etc. prior to submission to the AHJ for review and then complete and seal a Fire Sprinkler System Certificate of Compliance (COC) form. You can learn more by reading the SC Fire Protection Sprinkler Systems Act at http://www.scstatehouse.gov/code/t40c010.htm. Q - Do you know what you call the Doctor that almost didn't graduate and almost failed to get his license? A - Doctor! The same as the guy that graduated top of his class and aced his license exam. As an AHJ, I see the whole "bell-curve" of licensed contractors and registered design professionals. What I fear most is the "perfect storm" pairing of negligent/incompetent contractors with negligent/incompetent PEs and negligent/incompetent AHJs and then fire sprinkler systems as a whole getting a bad reputation due to incidents with such improperly designed and improperly installed systems. We are on the cusp of a sea-change if we can keep the sprinkler requirements in the IRC and get them adopted in more and more jurisdictions. Once people get accustomed to the benefits of sprinklers at home, they will wonder why so many other buildings built under the IBC aren't required to be sprinklered also... David W. S. Blackwell, II, PE, CFI-I, CFPE Engineering ---------------------------------------------------------------- Office of State Fire Marshal 141 Monticello Trail Columbia, SC 29203 Phone: 803.896.9833 Fax: 803.896.9806 Email: [email protected] OSFM Website: http://www.llr.state.sc.us/firemarshal.asp ---------------------------------------------------------------- -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of ParsleyConsulting Sent: Tuesday, September 22, 2009 2:04 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: walk in Ovens Kevin, Don't let that one hit close to home, because when you ask questions and look for assistance you're steps ahead of many PE's who are operating well outside their area of experience and training. As for the "making bank" I agree, and I don't. I've heard the old saw "bid it low and extra them into the land of profit" for many years as an approach to the bidding process, and that bothers me to no end. However, I'm involved with a sprinkler contractor here in California who's run afoul of a PE who has made last minute demands on the contractor for seismic bracing which is well beyond the scope of NFPA-13, and wasn't a part of the bid documents that they or their competitors used when estimating the job costs. The number of braces on the system if you follow NFPA-13 requirements is approximately 18-20, however the demands made by the structural PE will increase that number to over 190 braces (such as all branch lines regardless of size or length to be provided with two lateral and two longitudinal braces, braces to be located and 1/4 or 1/3 points of pipe - not ZOI but pipe - for all mains, etc.). None of that could have been anticipated or known because he just made it up, and I don't want to do that to the owner, but I don't want to do that to the sprinkler contractor either because it definitely isn't his fault. The hostility is the result of surprises, which "someone else" is expected to pay for because "they should have known". I will say this - I've yet to meet a sprinkler contractor who refused to do something beyond the standard if it was made clear to them on bid documents what was expected. Just my thoughts. -- PARSLEY CONSULTING Ken Wagoner, SET 760.745.6181 voice 760.745.0537 fax [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> e-mail www.ParsleyConsulting.com <http://www.ParsleyConsulting.com> website _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
