Greg and all, We have very cold climates and we do not use tri seal unless mandated which it rarely is. To my knowledge we have never cut groove. This is my 16th year and we don't have problems because of this. Now I would be remiss to say that there have been freezeups that made you scratch your head and we never came up with the cause. Maybe this is a lesson learned late. I am not convinced but i am convincible if someone has empirical data.
Rod DiBona Rapid Fire ________________________________________ From: [email protected] [[email protected]] On Behalf Of Greg McGahan [[email protected]] Sent: Friday, December 11, 2009 1:24 PM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: tri seal gaskets My 2 cents worth is thus: We life in a climate where a real freeze only occurs every 10 or so years, the last true hard freeze here in which there was significant damage from the temps was around 96 or 97. Nearly all of the corrosion that we see on wet and dry systems is from the outside in not from the inside out. I have never seen a dry system that was seriously damaged from roll grooved pipe, or MIC in this area. I would almost say that the money spent on a large percentage of dry systems here is not well spent barring the paranormal freeze. I think the issue is that as the use of the NFPA codes has expanded, and the rules have been better defined and more issues have been addressed, that the fact that there is HUGE diversity in the practical needs across the country has been overlooked to some degree on purpose in favor of standardization. I stay out of many of these threads because the issue you guys face up North are so far from the world that I know that your needs are completely different and more important than the same issues here. BUT, cut grooving schedule 40 here in order to keep from trapping water in a coupling or using a tri-seal coupling would not gain you much down here. Greg McGahan Operations Manager Living Water Fire Protection 1160 McKenzie Road P.O. Box 877 Cantonment, Florida 32533 (850) 937.1850 | Fax (850) 937.1852 | Cell (850) 554.3231 [email protected] -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of George Church Sent: Friday, December 11, 2009 10:58 AM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: tri seal gaskets No invoice, no opinion? :) I don't think I'm wrong in stereotyping most sprinkler contractors as being a bit myopic when it comes to the big picture and our cost relative to it. Sure, most of our customers want to spend less- or nothing- on sprinklers. HOWEVER, when the total system cost over the life of the building is analyzed, upgrades may be cheaper than replacing the system or the interference with operations that sprinkler problems can create- and I'm not even addressing damage. Am I correct that a little education is all that is necessary to convince owners to stay the course of your upgrade, and buy peace of mind? I believe it costs more to LIGHT the building over its life than it does to BUILD the place. So while it looks like a lot when we're only looking at our pricing, look at the big picture and understand why we're last trade bought out. When we've suggested design changes in DB work we were quickly educated that while you can save a branchline per bay, the effect of a change in the steel was a quantum increase in comparison to the paltry $ we were saving. If your work is 1~5% of construction, we'd have to be free to overcome a change in building steel of only 5% of 38% of the building cost that steel may represents. Glc Ps- I made up the 38% for steel as % of total building cost. Seemed close enough for illustration purposes. -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Scott A. Futrell Sent: Friday, December 11, 2009 11:34 AM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: tri seal gaskets George, I'm not Dave or Mark, and I don't have opinions (!), but the experiences are bad with rusting (all the way through in less than 20 years) to freeze and pipe separation - without flush seal gaskets. We spec sch. 40 with cut grooves, but get much negative feedback for conservative, more costly approach. Btw -7°F here this morning, but now it's +7! Scott -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of George Church Sent: Friday, December 11, 2009 10:18 AM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: tri seal gaskets Before Frozen Dave became an SH wizard, he'd have chimed in here about the "mini-dams" that get created when roll-grooved piping has condensation puddling both in the pipe ends uphill from the groove intruding up into the bottom of the pie, as well as the water sitting in the gasket. Potential for corrosion and freeze/break. Not much we'll be doing about the puddling on the bottom of the pipe, short of using Sch40 and cutgrooving (or thread it!) but the area on the bottom of the coupling may be subject to a freeze/break. Since he's native North Dakota, I'll defer to his expertise and experience with cold far surpassing anything I'd tolerate before moving south. Mark, you're entitled to an opinion on this and have remained in the same tundra. Do you experience problems from liquids accumulating in these lower areas? I can't ask Dave now, he'd suggest clean agent or Hi-Ex. glc -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of John Denhardt Sent: Friday, December 11, 2009 9:21 AM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: tri seal gaskets Any gasket that is listed for dry pipe service may be used. Most manufacture's recommend using one but the other "less expensive" gaskets are usually listed for dry pipe service. John John August Denhardt, P.E. Strickland Fire Protection Incorporated 5113 Berwyn Road College Park, Maryland 20740 Office Telephone Number: 301-474-1136 Mobile Telephone Number: 301-343-1457 FIRE SPRINKLERS SAVE LIVES -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Bob Caputo Sent: Tuesday, December 08, 2009 5:35 PM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: tri seal gaskets Other than NFPA 13, section 6.5.3.3 "Grooved fittings, including gaskets used on dry-pipe, preaction, and deluge systems, shall be listed for dry pipe service" ? -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Robert Thompson Sent: Tuesday, December 08, 2009 1:43 PM To: [email protected] Subject: tri seal gaskets Is there a code that required couplings to have tri seal gaskets in dry systems? Thank you Robert Thompson DAKOTA FIRE PROTECTION 1710 N. Washington Street Grand Forks ND 58206-5327 Phone # (701) 772-8820 Fax # (701) 772-7932 Email [email protected] _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
