Flow 2 heads as cheap as you can and meet applicable minimum consensus standard. Offer every upgrade you think is appropriate and the Owner paying the bill can select how much he'd like to invest in the protection.
-----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Greg McGahan Sent: Friday, March 05, 2010 8:52 AM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: 13D Large Garage Revisited That is why I tried to limit the scope of this discussion. I don't want to open the already beat up discussion of the non-existent size limits on 13D. I just need to figure out what to do with this one Garage!! Greg McGahan Living Water Fire Protection (850) 937.1850 | Fax (850) 937.1852 | Cell (850) 554.3231 -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of George Church Sent: Friday, March 05, 2010 7:53 AM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: 13D Large Garage Revisited That would depend on a zillion variables. We could spend a lot of time discussing and never reach a conclusion. It's 13D. -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Daniel Merkle Sent: Friday, March 05, 2010 8:35 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: 13D Large Garage Revisited Kinda off topic, but If a fire broke out in a 18,000sqft home, would 10 minutes be enough time to get out? I could see someone getting disoriented in the middle of the night and not being able to find their way out of the home. Daniel L. Merkle, CET NICET # 118915 Automatic Sprinkler System Layout, Level III "COLONIAL" Fire Protection Systems Inc. 937 Linden Ave. W. E. Rochester, N.Y. 14445 Office-(585) 381-7362 Fax-(585) 381-8263 E-mail - [email protected] ________________________________ From: Greg McGahan <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Fri, March 5, 2010 8:19:24 AM Subject: RE: 13D Large Garage Revisited It is a wet system. The living area of the house is approx. 18,000 sqft by the way. Greg McGahan Living Water Fire Protection (850) 937.1850 | Fax (850) 937.1852 | Cell (850) 554.3231 -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of George Church Sent: Friday, March 05, 2010 6:31 AM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: 13D Large Garage Revisited Take a deep breath, a step back and look at the big picture: 13D. Get the job, and then propose an upgrade; if there's gonna be $3.6 mil worth of Italian HP in there, it would be prudent to do so. But you'll have made the best shot at getting the work, and offering whatever level the owner wants to pay for above code minimum. glc -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Todd Williams Sent: Friday, March 05, 2010 6:09 AM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: 13D Large Garage Revisited Greg, They are calling it a garage, but what is the actual occupancy? If this is Jay Leno and he is planning on storing part of his collection, then they may be right. (my assumption here is that 8500 is the actual square footage of the space we are talking about) If it is like my garage, it has a classic boat, workshop, storage of old files, sports gear, leftovers from my mothers house, etc. Not exactly the all-American two cars, a rake and Johnny's bike. In reality, it's more storage. The purpose of a 13D system is to give people time to get out of the house so they don't die in the fire. We're not trying to save anything else. If we do, great. I would think the purpose of protecting a garage would be to do the same. You should be asking yourself what is going to accomplish that goal. It sounds like the AHJ is asking for what is noted in 13D (2002) section A.8.6.4. Although there is basis for it in Code, they readily admit that this approach has not been tested. Perhaps note this and accept his idea. There is not much else to go on. Although from an engineering standpoint, I like your 4 head calc idea, but there is nothing hard to justify it. BTW, being a beach, don't forget the galvanized pipe and protected sprinklers. Good luck. At 09:29 PM 3/4/2010, you wrote: >Well....I am not trying to practips notice engineering, but there >will be an engineer involved at some point and if tradition >continues he will ask us what we think. > >Since I am not the engineer but I am of reasonable intelligence and >I possess greater than average concern for the product we produce >(present company excepted)I have the following questions: > >1) Is this truly a situation where some protection is better than none or not? >2) Does anyone know statistically how many heads operate in a >Parking Garage Fire? >3) What about the stipulation that states that an AHJ cannot accept >less than code, but he can require more than code requires? ( At >least in Florida) >4) As with probably everyone or almost everyone that is a contractor >right now, we need this job and I do not want to let go of it >easily, but we will if it is potentially a disaster waiting to happen. > >Greg McGahan > >Living Water Fire Protection > (850) 937.1850 | Fax (850) 937.1852 | Cell (850) 554.3231 > >-----Original Message----- >From: [email protected] >[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Ron Greenman >Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2010 7:56 PM >To: [email protected]; [email protected] >Subject: Re: 13D Large Garage Revisited > >But....What will you really get and how much red stuff do you need for >flashover in this garage and why do you care in a life safety system? >How long can this garage burn before it threatens the folks inside the >house. My guess is that we don't sprinkler garages in 13D 'cause even >in stick frame and rock garages we figure anybody inside will be awake >and will run away from the fire. I still think Greg's problem is more >political than engineering though. > >On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 5:27 PM, <[email protected]> wrote: > > Interesting question on the ssu v res heads. 13d imho was a > search for a minimum with a limited intent. So we know 0.05 res > head will for 10 min. prevent flashover. We don't know with more > water in a different pattern really what will happen related to > flashover. And I'm guessing more water in this thought because I > don't know what each spacing and pressure will be. But 14 x 14 and > 7 psi on a 5.6 is about 0.75 which is 50% more than the theoretical > 0.5. Also consider there aren't any walls really in this room. I > also know any moisture entrained will reduce the upper layer temp > which will delay flashover. I also know putting the wet stuff on > the red stuff, ssu, reduces the red stuff and less red stuff delays > flashover. And a room this big is hard to flashover. IMHO I do > think flashover will be delayed even with ssu's. > > > > Chris > > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: "Thom McMahon" <[email protected]> > > Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2010 16:52:34 > > To: <[email protected]> > > Subject: RE: 13D Large Garage Revisited > > > > I would be asking that if you do use SSU or SSP QR heads do they > provide the > > same protection from flashover as Res. Heads? I think not. Res. Heads apply > > most of the water to the upper wall, while SSP/SSU put most of their water > > on the floor and lower wall. > > Additionally, you say this is a house on stilts, so does the egress pass > > thru the garage or alone one of its walls? Is that wall rated or at least > > 5/8 type X? > > > > Thom McMahon, SET > > Firetech, Inc. > > 2560 Copper Ridge Dr > > P.O. Box 882136 > > Steamboat Springs, CO 80488 > > Tel: 970-879-7952 > > Fax: 970-879-7926 > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [email protected] > > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Chris Cahill > > Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2010 4:35 PM > > To: [email protected] > > Subject: RE: 13D Large Garge Revisited > > > > 13D does not contain a reference to OH. 13D is the standard for SFH. 13D > > does not contain a sq.ft. limit for application. Here's a question or two. > > > > Do, in your opinion, feel the intent to delay flashover will be met with a > > 13D in the garage? Do you believe 13D has a clear intent to the treatment > > of a garage (nothing actually required, right)? Do you believe 2 head 13D > > calc is MORE than required? Do you believe more time will be afforded to > > occupants by providing a 13D in the garage even if it does not control the > > fire as the intent of the higher 13 standard? Do you believe your actions > > put anyone in danger from providing LESS than what the law requires? Sure > > the system might not control the fire and people could get hurt but that > > would occur faster if you did nothing as the standard allows, right? The > > annex support this approach. > > > > Those are all the reasons why this is OK legally and even morally, IMHO. > > > > You can certainly give the base and offer the higher level in the garage. > > Then you at least have a positive vs. implied assumption of risk when > > declined. > > > > Life is an STD for your parents and a terminal disease for you. > > > > Chris Cahill, P.E. > > Fire Protection Engineer > > Sentry Fire Protection, Inc. > > > > 763-658-4483 > > 763-658-4921 fax > > > > Email: [email protected] > > > > Mail: P.O. Box 69 > > Waverly, MN 55390 > > > > Location: 4439 Hwy 12 SW > > Waverly, MN 55390 > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [email protected] > > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Greg McGahan > > Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2010 5:03 PM > > To: [email protected] > > Subject: 13D Large Garge Revisited > > > > I know this is a very controversial issue (large 13d houses) so I am trying > > to get feedback from those who have already evaluated this type of > > situation. > > > > The lowest level of this house on pilings on the beach is > enclosed and lands > > at about 8,500 sq ft. It is being called a "Garage" and has a poured in > > place concrete ceiling that consists of roughly 14' x 14' bays in which the > > beams are about 14" deep - therefore it is obstructed construction. > > > > The AHJ is asking for us to provide steel pipe and perform a 2 > head 13D calc > > since he considers it no more hazardous than a normal home garage. We have > > not been awarded this contract and the bid war is still on or I would throw > > caution to the wind and say that it needs to be OH and calc accordingly. > > However, that would require a separate fire main and all that includes as > > the intended 2" Domestic line would not supply an OH calc. > > > > My though was to do a 4 head calc and use SSU sprinklers. Would I > space them > > at 130 sqft or 225 sqft if I were to attempt this arrangement. Or is there > > any factual data to say that we must go to OH in this instance? > > > > Thanks for your help. > > > > Greg McGahan > > > > Living Water Fire Protection > > (850) 937.1850 | Fax (850) 937.1852 | Cell (850) 554.3231 > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > [email protected] > > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > > > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > > > > To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] > > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > [email protected] > > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > > > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > > > > To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] > > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > [email protected] > > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > > > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > > > > To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] > > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > [email protected] > > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > > > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > > > > To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] > > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > > > > >-- >Ron Greenman >Instructor >Fire Protection Engineering >Bates Technical College >Tacoma, WA > >Member: >SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, AFSA, NFSA AFAA, NIBS, WSAFM, WFC >_______________________________________________ >Sprinklerforum mailing list >[email protected] >http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > >For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > >To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] >(Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) >_______________________________________________ >Sprinklerforum mailing list >[email protected] >http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > >For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > >To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] >(Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) Todd G. Williams, PE Fire Protection Design/Consulting Stonington, Connecticut 860-535-2080 www.fpdc.com _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
