How about using a K=6.9 residential sprinkler spaced at 14 x 14 (bay dimensions) and flow it at 16 x 16 design. It would probably give you 50% more water than a K=4.2 (19 gpm vs. 13 gpm on Tyco heads) and meets the FM's design criteria. I have no idea what impact it would have but it might give you an additional level of security. Not trying to play engineer, but it could be a reasonable solution.
At 05:13 PM 3/5/2010, you wrote: >Last opinion question, spacing? 130 or 225? > >Greg McGahan > >Living Water Fire Protection >(850) 937.1850 | Fax (850) 937.1852 | Cell (850) 554.3231 > > >-----Original Message----- >From: [email protected] >[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of George Church >Sent: Friday, March 05, 2010 8:02 AM >To: [email protected] >Subject: RE: 13D Large Garage Revisited > >Flow 2 heads as cheap as you can and meet applicable minimum consensus >standard. Offer every upgrade you think is appropriate and the Owner paying >the bill can select how much he'd like to invest in the protection. > >-----Original Message----- >From: [email protected] >[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Greg McGahan >Sent: Friday, March 05, 2010 8:52 AM >To: [email protected] >Subject: RE: 13D Large Garage Revisited > >That is why I tried to limit the scope of this discussion. I don't want to >open the already beat up discussion of the non-existent size limits on 13D. >I just need to figure out what to do with this one Garage!! > >Greg McGahan > >Living Water Fire Protection > (850) 937.1850 | Fax (850) 937.1852 | Cell (850) 554.3231 > > >-----Original Message----- >From: [email protected] >[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of George Church >Sent: Friday, March 05, 2010 7:53 AM >To: [email protected] >Subject: RE: 13D Large Garage Revisited > >That would depend on a zillion variables. >We could spend a lot of time discussing and never reach a conclusion. > >It's 13D. > >-----Original Message----- >From: [email protected] >[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Daniel Merkle >Sent: Friday, March 05, 2010 8:35 AM >To: [email protected] >Subject: Re: 13D Large Garage Revisited > >Kinda off topic, but If a fire broke out in a 18,000sqft home, would 10 >minutes be enough time to get out? I could see someone getting disoriented >in the middle of the night and not being able to find their way out of the >home. > > >Daniel L. Merkle, CET >NICET # 118915 >Automatic Sprinkler System Layout, Level III >"COLONIAL" Fire Protection Systems Inc. >937 Linden Ave. W. >E. Rochester, N.Y. 14445 >Office-(585) 381-7362 >Fax-(585) 381-8263 >E-mail - [email protected] > > > > >________________________________ >From: Greg McGahan <[email protected]> >To: [email protected] >Sent: Fri, March 5, 2010 8:19:24 AM >Subject: RE: 13D Large Garage Revisited > >It is a wet system. The living area of the house is approx. 18,000 sqft by >the way. > >Greg McGahan > >Living Water Fire Protection >(850) 937.1850 | Fax (850) 937.1852 | Cell (850) 554.3231 > > >-----Original Message----- >From: [email protected] >[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of George Church >Sent: Friday, March 05, 2010 6:31 AM >To: [email protected] >Subject: RE: 13D Large Garage Revisited > >Take a deep breath, a step back and look at the big picture: 13D. > >Get the job, and then propose an upgrade; if there's gonna be $3.6 mil worth >of Italian HP in there, it would be prudent to do so. But you'll have made >the best shot at getting the work, and offering whatever level the owner >wants to pay for above code minimum. > >glc > >-----Original Message----- >From: [email protected] >[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Todd Williams >Sent: Friday, March 05, 2010 6:09 AM >To: [email protected] >Subject: RE: 13D Large Garage Revisited > >Greg, > >They are calling it a garage, but what is the actual occupancy? If >this is Jay Leno and he is planning on storing part of his >collection, then they may be right. (my assumption here is that 8500 >is the actual square footage of the space we are talking about) If it >is like my garage, it has a classic boat, workshop, storage of old >files, sports gear, leftovers from my mothers house, etc. Not exactly >the all-American two cars, a rake and Johnny's bike. In reality, it's >more storage. > >The purpose of a 13D system is to give people time to get out of the >house so they don't die in the fire. We're not trying to save >anything else. If we do, great. I would think the purpose of >protecting a garage would be to do the same. You should be asking >yourself what is going to accomplish that goal. > >It sounds like the AHJ is asking for what is noted in 13D (2002) >section A.8.6.4. Although there is basis for it in Code, they readily >admit that this approach has not been tested. Perhaps note this and >accept his idea. There is not much else to go on. Although from an >engineering standpoint, I like your 4 head calc idea, but there is >nothing hard to justify it. > >BTW, being a beach, don't forget the galvanized pipe and protected >sprinklers. > >Good luck. > > > >At 09:29 PM 3/4/2010, you wrote: > >Well....I am not trying to practips notice engineering, but there > >will be an engineer involved at some point and if tradition > >continues he will ask us what we think. > > > >Since I am not the engineer but I am of reasonable intelligence and > >I possess greater than average concern for the product we produce > >(present company excepted)I have the following questions: > > > >1) Is this truly a situation where some protection is better than none or >not? > >2) Does anyone know statistically how many heads operate in a > >Parking Garage Fire? > >3) What about the stipulation that states that an AHJ cannot accept > >less than code, but he can require more than code requires? ( At > >least in Florida) > >4) As with probably everyone or almost everyone that is a contractor > >right now, we need this job and I do not want to let go of it > >easily, but we will if it is potentially a disaster waiting to happen. > > > >Greg McGahan > > > >Living Water Fire Protection > > (850) 937.1850 | Fax (850) 937.1852 | Cell (850) 554.3231 > > > >-----Original Message----- > >From: [email protected] > >[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Ron Greenman > >Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2010 7:56 PM > >To: [email protected]; [email protected] > >Subject: Re: 13D Large Garage Revisited > > > >But....What will you really get and how much red stuff do you need for > >flashover in this garage and why do you care in a life safety system? > >How long can this garage burn before it threatens the folks inside the > >house. My guess is that we don't sprinkler garages in 13D 'cause even > >in stick frame and rock garages we figure anybody inside will be awake > >and will run away from the fire. I still think Greg's problem is more > >political than engineering though. > > > >On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 5:27 PM, <[email protected]> wrote: > > > Interesting question on the ssu v res heads. 13d imho was a > > search for a minimum with a limited intent. So we know 0.05 res > > head will for 10 min. prevent flashover. We don't know with more > > water in a different pattern really what will happen related to > > flashover. And I'm guessing more water in this thought because I > > don't know what each spacing and pressure will be. But 14 x 14 and > > 7 psi on a 5.6 is about 0.75 which is 50% more than the theoretical > > 0.5. Also consider there aren't any walls really in this room. I > > also know any moisture entrained will reduce the upper layer temp > > which will delay flashover. I also know putting the wet stuff on > > the red stuff, ssu, reduces the red stuff and less red stuff delays > > flashover. And a room this big is hard to flashover. IMHO I do > > think flashover will be delayed even with ssu's. > > > > > > Chris > > > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: "Thom McMahon" <[email protected]> > > > Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2010 16:52:34 > > > To: <[email protected]> > > > Subject: RE: 13D Large Garage Revisited > > > > > > I would be asking that if you do use SSU or SSP QR heads do they > > provide the > > > same protection from flashover as Res. Heads? I think not. Res. Heads >apply > > > most of the water to the upper wall, while SSP/SSU put most of their >water > > > on the floor and lower wall. > > > Additionally, you say this is a house on stilts, so does the egress pass > > > thru the garage or alone one of its walls? Is that wall rated or at >least > > > 5/8 type X? > > > > > > Thom McMahon, SET > > > Firetech, Inc. > > > 2560 Copper Ridge Dr > > > P.O. Box 882136 > > > Steamboat Springs, CO 80488 > > > Tel: 970-879-7952 > > > Fax: 970-879-7926 > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: [email protected] > > > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Chris >Cahill > > > Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2010 4:35 PM > > > To: [email protected] > > > Subject: RE: 13D Large Garge Revisited > > > > > > 13D does not contain a reference to OH. 13D is the standard for SFH. >13D > > > does not contain a sq.ft. limit for application. Here's a question or >two. > > > > > > Do, in your opinion, feel the intent to delay flashover will be met with >a > > > 13D in the garage? Do you believe 13D has a clear intent to the >treatment > > > of a garage (nothing actually required, right)? Do you believe 2 head >13D > > > calc is MORE than required? Do you believe more time will be afforded to > > > occupants by providing a 13D in the garage even if it does not control >the > > > fire as the intent of the higher 13 standard? Do you believe your >actions > > > put anyone in danger from providing LESS than what the law requires? >Sure > > > the system might not control the fire and people could get hurt but that > > > would occur faster if you did nothing as the standard allows, right? >The > > > annex support this approach. > > > > > > Those are all the reasons why this is OK legally and even morally, IMHO. > > > > > > You can certainly give the base and offer the higher level in the >garage. > > > Then you at least have a positive vs. implied assumption of risk when > > > declined. > > > > > > Life is an STD for your parents and a terminal disease for you. > > > > > > Chris Cahill, P.E. > > > Fire Protection Engineer > > > Sentry Fire Protection, Inc. > > > > > > 763-658-4483 > > > 763-658-4921 fax > > > > > > Email: [email protected] > > > > > > Mail: P.O. Box 69 > > > Waverly, MN 55390 > > > > > > Location: 4439 Hwy 12 SW > > > Waverly, MN 55390 > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: [email protected] > > > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Greg >McGahan > > > Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2010 5:03 PM > > > To: [email protected] > > > Subject: 13D Large Garge Revisited > > > > > > I know this is a very controversial issue (large 13d houses) so I am >trying > > > to get feedback from those who have already evaluated this type of > > > situation. > > > > > > The lowest level of this house on pilings on the beach is > > enclosed and lands > > > at about 8,500 sq ft. It is being called a "Garage" and has a poured in > > > place concrete ceiling that consists of roughly 14' x 14' bays in which >the > > > beams are about 14" deep - therefore it is obstructed construction. > > > > > > The AHJ is asking for us to provide steel pipe and perform a 2 > > head 13D calc > > > since he considers it no more hazardous than a normal home garage. We >have > > > not been awarded this contract and the bid war is still on or I would >throw > > > caution to the wind and say that it needs to be OH and calc accordingly. > > > However, that would require a separate fire main and all that includes >as > > > the intended 2" Domestic line would not supply an OH calc. > > > > > > My though was to do a 4 head calc and use SSU sprinklers. Would I > > space them > > > at 130 sqft or 225 sqft if I were to attempt this arrangement. Or is >there > > > any factual data to say that we must go to OH in this instance? > > > > > > Thanks for your help. > > > > > > Greg McGahan > > > > > > Living Water Fire Protection > > > (850) 937.1850 | Fax (850) 937.1852 | Cell (850) 554.3231 > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > > [email protected] > > > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > > > > > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > > > > > > To Unsubscribe, send an email >to:[email protected] > > > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > > [email protected] > > > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > > > > > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > > > > > > To Unsubscribe, send an email >to:[email protected] > > > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > > [email protected] > > > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > > > > > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > > > > > > To Unsubscribe, send an email >to:[email protected] > > > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > > [email protected] > > > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > > > > > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > > > > > > To Unsubscribe, send an email >to:[email protected] > > > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > > > > > > > > > >-- > >Ron Greenman > >Instructor > >Fire Protection Engineering > >Bates Technical College > >Tacoma, WA > > > >Member: > >SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, AFSA, NFSA AFAA, NIBS, WSAFM, WFC > >_______________________________________________ > >Sprinklerforum mailing list > >[email protected] > >http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > > >For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > > > >To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] > >(Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > >_______________________________________________ > >Sprinklerforum mailing list > >[email protected] > >http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > > >For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > > > >To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] > >(Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > >Todd G. Williams, PE >Fire Protection Design/Consulting >Stonington, Connecticut >860-535-2080 >www.fpdc.com > >_______________________________________________ >Sprinklerforum mailing list >[email protected] >http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > >For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > >To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] >(Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > >_______________________________________________ >Sprinklerforum mailing list >[email protected] >http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > >For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > >To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] >(Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) >_______________________________________________ >Sprinklerforum mailing list >[email protected] >http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > >For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > >To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] >(Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > > > >_______________________________________________ >Sprinklerforum mailing list >[email protected] >http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > >For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > >To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] >(Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > >_______________________________________________ >Sprinklerforum mailing list >[email protected] >http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > >For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > >To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] >(Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) >_______________________________________________ >Sprinklerforum mailing list >[email protected] >http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > >For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > >To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] >(Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > >_______________________________________________ >Sprinklerforum mailing list >[email protected] >http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > >For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > >To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] >(Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) >_______________________________________________ >Sprinklerforum mailing list >[email protected] >http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > >For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > >To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] >(Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) Todd G. Williams, PE Fire Protection Design/Consulting Stonington, Connecticut 860-535-2080 www.fpdc.com _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
