Hey Chris, where you say "Bad idea, against the law (NFPA 13) and not worth the risk."
Are you saying insulating pipe is against the law per 13? If so how do you interpret 8.16.4.1.3 "Where aboveground water-filled supply pipes, risers, system risers, or feed mains pass through open areas, cold rooms, passageways, or other areas exposed to temperatures below 40°F (4°C), the pipe shall be protected against freezing by insulating coverings, frostproof casings, listed heat tracing systems, or other reliable means capable of maintaining a minimum temperature between 40°F (4°C) and 120°F (48.9°C).", specifically the terms "insulating coverings or frostproof casings"? Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection Specialist Mechanical Department CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 [email protected] http://www.ch2m.com -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Chris Cahill Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2010 9:23 AM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Pipe Wrapping Well yes but. Insulation of non-flowing fluids in a pipe such as our systems will be aided by insulation but not in the way the insurance guy suggested. The insulation will slow the heat loss. So if I have two identical wet sprinkler pipes, one with insulation, one without, running through a cold space at say 65 deg F in the afternoon and the temp drops at night to say 20 deg F the one without the insulation will freeze first. The difference in time can be calculated. And as the local temperature changes in the pipe convective currents can set up transferring some cold liquid to a warmer space and some of the warmer space fluid returning to the cold side. This will further slow freezing but might be harder to quantify. And I'd suspect the insulation would help here too. If you live in an area that might see sub freezing for only a couple hours enough insulation MIGHT prevent a freeze where a short uninsulated pipe would freeze. Now I'm discussing the details of insulation not the wisdom of using it on sprinkler pipe without heat tracing or some other heat source. Bad idea, against the law (NFPA 13) and not worth the risk. But hey if the owner tells you to go this way or the insurance guy get it in writing and at least you will have regular service work without liability for freezing. Chris Cahill, P.E. Fire Protection Engineer Sentry Fire Protection, Inc. 763-658-4483 763-658-4921 fax Email: [email protected] Mail: P.O. Box 69 Waverly, MN 55390 Location: 4439 Hwy 12 SW Waverly, MN 55390 -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of [email protected] Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2010 7:30 AM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Pipe Wrapping Insulating piping to prevent freezing or to maintain fluid temps in various conditions is a mechanical engineering function and is done all the time, no black magic there, just numbers. It's a matter of simple heat loss calculations that can determine the amount of insulation needed to minimize the heat loss of the fluid within the pipe. If you know the water temp in the pipe is for instance 50 degrees and the ambient temp could be say 30 degrees, you can calculate the R-value of the insulation based on the data. It's all pretty basic stuff dealing with conductance, transference and resistance. But if someone is just going to the Big Box home improvement store and buying a few sticks of 1/2" slip-on foam insulation, they have nothing to substantiate what that will achieve without someone doing some calcs. Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection Specialist Mechanical Department CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 [email protected] http://www.ch2m.com -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Jay Jay Blocker Sent: Wednesday, April 14, 2010 9:43 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: Pipe Wrapping I got a call from a manager of seven hotels. Over the past five years they have had 600k in insurance claims due to frozen pipes. One of the (so well educated) investigators from the insurance company saw some wet pipe that runs within six feet of vents to the outside air. The investigator said the pipe should be wrapped to prevent freezing. I asked if the pipe is required to stay at 40 degrees how can the manufacture of the insulation (which would be bought at a big box store locally) could GUARANTEE the pipe will stay at or above that temperature. Point being that moving the pipe away from the vent or sealing the vent is a better option to reduce the risk of seeing such temperatures. J EFPS (303) 353-9712 ________________________________ From: Scott A. Futrell <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Tue, April 13, 2010 8:03:08 AM Subject: RE: Pipe Wrapping What is the context of your question? Why would you want to wrap sprinkler pipe with pipe insulation? You can't wrap it like domestic pipe in an unheated space, the water will most likely freeze anyway eventually. Moisture doesn't condense on the outside of it. So what is the reason? Scott Futrell (763) 425-1001 Office (612) 759-5556 Cell -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of John Denhardt Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 6:55 PM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Pipe Wrapping I believe you were dreaming. John John August Denhardt, P.E. Strickland Fire Protection Incorporated 5113 Berwyn Road College Park, Maryland 20740 Office Telephone Number: 301-474-1136 Mobile Telephone Number: 301-343-1457 FIRE SPRINKLERS SAVE LIVES -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Jay Jay Blocker Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 8:13 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Pipe Wrapping I thought I once saw something saying that sprinkler pipe cant be wrapped with pipe insulation. Am I dreaming or does this code exist? I cant locate it. J. Blocker EFPS (303) 353-9712 _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
