The things I learn on the sprinkler forum.... Duane Johnson, PE Program Manager Division of the Fire Marshal (Support Contractor) Office of Research Services National Institutes of Health 301-496-0487
-----Original Message----- From: Chris Cahill [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2010 9:38 AM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Pipe Wrapping Like having friends over and throwing a case of beer on the deck at -20 in the afternoon and watching it so it wouldn't freeze only to find it was liquid until I popped the lid and it flash froze. Like in the winter we have to move our bottled water from the garage if we want to drink it. But my wife is pleased we now have an almost infinitely large freezer and a couple months either side a cooler. Like when the propane grill doesn't work at -25 (still can't figure that out as it should) yes some of us grill year round. Like throwing warm glasses of water up at -22 and they don't return to the ground or running water through the garden hose with a small orifice to create ice features. Or taking dry ice and exploring anti-freeze and what happens when it crosses the point of first ice crystals vs. the much lower solid point. Nope have no experience with cold weather testing at the Cahill National Test Lab, Twin Cities,MN. And note it's a little colder out Sorinson's way and Thom is certainly in the ballpark. Chris Cahill, P.E. Fire Protection Engineer Sentry Fire Protection, Inc. 763-658-4483 763-658-4921 fax Email: [email protected] Mail: P.O. Box 69 Waverly, MN 55390 Location: 4439 Hwy 12 SW Waverly, MN 55390 -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of George Church Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2010 8:19 AM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Pipe Wrapping Take a gallon glas milk bottle. Wrap it in 30' of insulation. Put it outside in September In march it will have frozen and broken cause at some point, without heat being added. Insulation without heat tape isn't going to help non-flowing exposure. I'm assuming test being performed at Cahill National Test Lab, Twin Cities, MN. -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of [email protected] Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2010 8:30 AM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Pipe Wrapping Insulating piping to prevent freezing or to maintain fluid temps in various conditions is a mechanical engineering function and is done all the time, no black magic there, just numbers. It's a matter of simple heat loss calculations that can determine the amount of insulation needed to minimize the heat loss of the fluid within the pipe. If you know the water temp in the pipe is for instance 50 degrees and the ambient temp could be say 30 degrees, you can calculate the R-value of the insulation based on the data. It's all pretty basic stuff dealing with conductance, transference and resistance. But if someone is just going to the Big Box home improvement store and buying a few sticks of 1/2" slip-on foam insulation, they have nothing to substantiate what that will achieve without someone doing some calcs. Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection Specialist Mechanical Department CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 [email protected] http://www.ch2m.com -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Jay Jay Blocker Sent: Wednesday, April 14, 2010 9:43 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: Pipe Wrapping I got a call from a manager of seven hotels. Over the past five years they have had 600k in insurance claims due to frozen pipes. One of the (so well educated) investigators from the insurance company saw some wet pipe that runs within six feet of vents to the outside air. The investigator said the pipe should be wrapped to prevent freezing. I asked if the pipe is required to stay at 40 degrees how can the manufacture of the insulation (which would be bought at a big box store locally) could GUARANTEE the pipe will stay at or above that temperature. Point being that moving the pipe away from the vent or sealing the vent is a better option to reduce the risk of seeing such temperatures. J EFPS (303) 353-9712 ________________________________ From: Scott A. Futrell <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Tue, April 13, 2010 8:03:08 AM Subject: RE: Pipe Wrapping What is the context of your question? Why would you want to wrap sprinkler pipe with pipe insulation? You can't wrap it like domestic pipe in an unheated space, the water will most likely freeze anyway eventually. Moisture doesn't condense on the outside of it. So what is the reason? Scott Futrell (763) 425-1001 Office (612) 759-5556 Cell -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of John Denhardt Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 6:55 PM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Pipe Wrapping I believe you were dreaming. John John August Denhardt, P.E. Strickland Fire Protection Incorporated 5113 Berwyn Road College Park, Maryland 20740 Office Telephone Number: 301-474-1136 Mobile Telephone Number: 301-343-1457 FIRE SPRINKLERS SAVE LIVES -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Jay Jay Blocker Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 8:13 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Pipe Wrapping I thought I once saw something saying that sprinkler pipe cant be wrapped with pipe insulation. Am I dreaming or does this code exist? I cant locate it. J. Blocker EFPS (303) 353-9712 _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
