So sometimes it works and saves things and sometimes it explodes and kills people. We don't KNOW why it does what when but we speculate that it's due to: pick one or more from the current list but leave room for additions, or that it's all bunk and there's systems that will break with no hard facts. Both viewpoints are driven by the fear of suit, either from bad things happening because we left it in and there might be a fire and their might be a person harmed, or bad things will happen because the system broke without the AF and property will be damaged for no good reason. In both cases we're responding to insufficient data and/or bad science. So what to do while we accumulate data and try to make good science sense from it? First don't react from fear or think that the last word is in. Then weigh both approaches recognizing that either available action carries risk, determine what you think is the riskier (NFPA has already used the data to determine which is scarier to them), and act as you see fit, recognizing that as new data becomes available your position may be modified or even reversed. Then develop a strategy for dealing with customers in explaining the POTENTIAL problem, the available solutions including the risks inherent in each temporary you determine are appropriate (do nothing, replace the AF with water, modify the system, etc.), make a recommendation of what you think is best and why, then let an informed customer decide what level of risk he's willing to accept regarding HIS building. Finally let him know that the final word is being worked on and that you'll keep him apprised of developments because you value him as a customer and so are concerned about HIS safety and HIS building. Once again I'm suggesting that you, the profesional, take the responsibility that is yours, that is providing professional services to your customers, and NOT taking responsibility to save the world or to be omnipotent about how a currently accepted technology might turn out to be not so good in the future.
On Wed, Sep 22, 2010 at 6:26 PM, Scott A. Futrell <[email protected]> wrote: > From a parasite: > As stated here before, pressure, orifice size, concentration or > proximity to fire and sprinkler, location, and source of ignition ALL > play parts. > Yes, in Minnesota we have documented cases of AF systems controlling > fires in several garages attached to 13D or 13R systems. > > Scott > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Greg > McGahan > Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2010 8:18 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: Anti Freeze for commercial > > Having worked in every facet of this industry except the supply side, > I can tell you that there have been many cases of "if a little is good, > then more is better". We have also seen antifreeze pumped in systems and > > then the water turned on in order to complete the filling. This was one > method demonstrated to me when I was a helper. > > Pressure, orifice size and concentration undoubtedly play a part. > > Do we have data on successful fire sprinkler operation with antifreeze > systems? > > Greg > > On 9/22/2010 7:54 PM, Chris Cahill wrote: >> In theory the FDC negates this good idea of pressure vs. > concentration. In >> reality FDC aren't used but we live in the theoretical world far, far > too >> often. >> >> Chris Cahill >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: [email protected] >> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Thom >> Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2010 6:45 PM >> To: [email protected] >> Subject: RE: Anti Freeze for commercial >> >> Rod: >> >> It very well turn out that glycol 70/30 works fine at say 45-50Psi and > you >> can only use 50/50 when pressure is over 60Psi or something like that. > The >> same with glycerine. The is a starting end head pressure part of this > story >> that needs to be worked out, not just the concentration. If 50/50 will > work >> under all pressures up to 175, What will work at pressures less than > 110 or >> 60???? >> >> I think there needs to be a lot more study, before we get anywhere > near the >> "Definative" answer we need to not feel EXPOSED! >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: [email protected] >> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Rod > DiBona >> Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2010 5:00 PM >> To: [email protected] >> Subject: RE: Anti Freeze for commercial >> >> I hear ya George. I am sure that I will learn more next week in Rhode >> Island. Yet another reason to go to every convention. Truth is that we >> commonly mix glycol 70/30 out here and Marty tells me for over 30 > years with >> no reported problem. I look forward to hearing and seeing the facts. > At the >> end of the day we will get through it and I do have confidence that > the >> right decision will be made. Just wondered if we knew with reasonable >> certainty that the antifreeze was the cause. Questioning why we > haven't seen >> these in the past; or if we had, was there a different diagnosis? Read > the >> report from FSI. Interesting and well done but I have some questions. > Maybe >> they get answered next week! See you down there. >> >> Rod DiBona >> Rapid Fire >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Sprinklerforum mailing list >> [email protected] >> http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >> >> For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] >> >> To Unsubscribe, send an email > to:[email protected] >> (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Sprinklerforum mailing list >> [email protected] >> http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >> >> For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] >> >> To Unsubscribe, send an email > to:[email protected] >> (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > -- > Greg C. McGahan Living Water Fire Protection, LLC. 1160 McKenzie Road > Cantonment, FL 32533 850-937-1850 Fax 850-937-1852 > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > > To Unsubscribe, send an email > to:[email protected] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > > To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > -- Ron Greenman Instructor Fire Protection Engineering Technology Bates Technical College 1101 So. Yakima Ave. Tacoma, WA 98405 [email protected] http://www.bates.ctc.edu/fireprotection/ 253.680.7346 253.576.9700 (cell) Member: AFSA, SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, NFSA, AFAA, ASEE, NIBS, WSAFM, WFC They are happy men whose natures sort with their vocations. -Francis Bacon, essayist, philosopher, and statesman (1561-1626) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
