Guys A friend just before Christmas needed a few pots and pans in a European country, I went along as I had little to do on holidays. The same brand of good brand (and hopefully quality) steel pots come in 2-3 different prices, although the same model numbers. The experienced shop manager explained that although the steel composition is identical, manufacturing machinery and technology are almost identical, testing standards are identical, the expensive one is manufactured in a European country with mainly virgin iron-steel hence it is 3 times the price of the cheapest one, which comes from a rather highly populated country recently foraying into iron steel industry, and mainly contains molten old trucks, rusting ships-barges, railway bridges, ammunition, any cheap scrap etc improved with additives to bring it up to composition, and third one is where there is a mix depending on the market prices etc. Also there's a big push towards manufacturing from scraps in DRI (direct reduced iron) process, instead of blast furnace in the two cheaper models. He explained that if "you are happy with a little extra mineral taste in your food and slight heavy metal accumulation over time, and not so reliable manufacturing, you can save a lot, I would not!" I strongly suggested my friend to open the purse now then spread over time.
Now the same applies to iron-steel used for pipes, valves and fittings (including Schd 40 pipe). I have been living in Asia for some time where a vast majority of products we see are manufactured in developing countries, they rust/corrode considerably faster than any I have seen until coming to this part of the world, pipe joints leak, wrenches snap and screw drivers wear out, even if they appear to be reputable makes. I believe there is considerably quality shift from iron-steel manufactured in some countries versus developing countries, although no one will probably (publicly) admit. Perhaps another factor? Cheers Jack Kilavuz -----Original Message----- From: Ron Greenman [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Tuesday, 18 January 2011 3:57 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: Air Releases in 2013 As I said, an observation. I don't know squat about metallurgy or water treatment. I do know that modern samurai sword makers like the iron from OLD ships' anchors, chains, etc. for some part of the process, so induction (never to be trusted) suggests that there is something about the manufacturing process (because in the case of samurai sword makers the other source of ferrous material they use is very particular, and very touchy to manufacture) that was but no longer is. And of course that can be as far off as the obvious observation that rain falling on the ground turns to mud and and then to dirt, otherwise where does it go? (And I'm not nuts, that's Aristotle's explanation.) On Mon, Jan 17, 2011 at 11:16 AM, Sprinkler Academy - C Bilbo <[email protected]> wrote: > > Of course we've considered it and we've talked alot about it. But no-one has presented a solid report on the inferiority of steel to us. That's why nearly a hundred proposals for all pipe to be Sched 40 were shot down. > > We do know that there is ALL kinds of changes in the water since the 1980's (clean Water Act). It's all certainly too much info to present here. > > Still, show me data regarding the problem. > > Cecil Bilbo > > >> Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2011 11:09:53 -0800 >> Subject: Re: Air Releases in 2013 >> From: [email protected] >> To: [email protected] >> >> Has anyone considered there may be "Something About Mary," that is the >> quality of steel. I've taken 3/4" out of 100 year old systems in >> Seattle that looks like it was made yesterday while a new chuck of >> pipe next door rots out in two years and has an interior that looks >> like the photos from a bad colonoscopy. You could argue that those old >> systems didn't have regular flow tests, you could, but Seattle has >> required flow tests (and has aggressively enforced same) since the >> eighties so something built ten years ago has typically had fewer flow >> tests than most (a few properties always squeak by) older buildings. >> Just a thought based on my limited experience but I have probably >> touched 30% plus of the systems in Seattle at one time or another. >> >> On Mon, Jan 17, 2011 at 10:55 AM, Sprinkler Academy - C Bilbo >> <[email protected]> wrote: >> > >> > As Roland mentioned, there is going to be quite a discussion at the NFPA 13 ROP meeting in Savannah in a couple of weeks. >> > >> > The Installation Criteria Committee heard a presentation from the CCI folks (recent Antifreeze Study for FPRF) about nitrogen and corrosion prevention. And the committee will discuss a few proposals as they debate and then vote on the issue. CCI has had a solid anti-corrosion presence at the last couple of NFPA 13 meetings and their views are finally getting some legs. >> > >> > Air release can be good and bad. Less oxygen equals less corrosion (in spite of Brad's rantings about molecular intercourse and shot gun weddings). More water (liquid water, Brad) equals less oxygen in a system. But more water also means higher pressure swings when the temperature changes. The wrong end of that requires pressure relief valves (something that 2010 implemented for all wet systems already, a CCI proposal). >> > >> > In my mind the Committee needs to see documented proof that "anti-corrosion" efforts are needed and that they are cost effective. So far, there has not been a single 'case study' presented. All of the debate (outside of science facts) has involved anectdotal statements and hearsay. We can all make alot of money on "anti-corrosion" efforts, but we should see if we are really saving an owner money. The anti-corrosion products are good products and they are obviously effective in a targeted effort. The folks representing these entities are doing a fine job and are well respected for their professionalism. But I'd really like to see some data besides how much corrosion is possible. >> > >> > If you want to see some cool stuff, watch the FPS-CMI presentation on the newer generation of Nitrogen Generators, until then there is good reading available at: http://www.fpscmi.com/research.htm >> > >> > I'll give a free admission to one Academy webinar to the first "non-committee member" that can tell me what "sparged" means in relation to this newer product. (hey Brad, think molecular brides) :-) >> > >> > It should be recognized that the above is my opinion as a member of the NFPA, and has not been processed as a formal interpretation in accordance with the NFPA Regulations Governing Committee Projects and should therefore not be considered, nor relied upon, as the official position of the the NFPA, nor any of their technical committees. >> > >> > Sincerely, >> > >> > >> > Cecil Bilbo >> > Academy of Fire Sprinkler Technology >> > Parkland College >> > Champaign, IL >> > 217.607.0325 >> > www.sprinkleracademy.com >> > [email protected] >> > >> > OUR STUDENTS SAVE LIVES!! >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >> Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2011 10:11:42 -0800 >> >> Subject: Re: Code reference for replacing remote end inspectors test withalisted Test N' Drain Valve.... >> >> From: [email protected] >> >> To: [email protected] >> >> >> >> Brad, >> >> >> >> I know I prattle and I suspect there are many Forum correspondents >> >> that see my name and immediately hit discard message. In, I believe a >> >> private post, I suggested that for you to avoid a similar fate that >> >> you back off from this number masturbation. I'm afraid you've hit my >> >> "too obtuse to take the time to decipher relative to the gain." Scot >> >> Deal is quite arcane with his couplets, et.al., but the payoff for the >> >> comment is usually worth the work. Your conclusions may very well be >> >> valuable but I'll never know because this damned blog already is far >> >> too time consuming. That is why I expect others do to my posts what >> >> I'll be doing to yours. Sorry for what you may consider a brutal >> >> attack. >> >> >> >> On Mon, Jan 17, 2011 at 9:35 AM, George Church <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> > So, we can't just stick a Potter auto air release at the top, or a couple 1/2" ball valves to get air out? My fitters don't know a lot about molecules, but they can open a valve until the air stops and water starts. >> >> > Benefits: >> >> > Material on the shelf or in the truck. >> >> > Little additional cost. >> >> > Little or no training required. >> >> > No need to find listed transparent tube material. >> >> > No need to worry about molecular lineage of bastards produced- we just get some water in a bucket we can throw down a slop sink. >> >> > AFSA membership can devote its resources to its mission, not buying hard drive space to archive 100 further posts of this discussion. >> >> > Drawbacks: >> >> > Can't see the air water mixture in the transparent sprig that we'll spend $100k getting listed once its engineered. >> >> > Can't spend 2 hard drives full of pixels on discussing appropriate formulas and potential materials. >> >> > We keep a dozen contributors/readers who don't unsubscribe in disgust. >> >> > >> >> > So is there a formula to weigh the various metrics so we can definitively determine which of the two options is best? I can implement mine today for $25. >> >> > >> >> > So for AFSA storage space and for those recvg emails on mobile phones, a reminder to trim replies! >> >> > >> >> > -----Original Message----- >> >> > From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Brad Casterline >> >> > Sent: Sunday, January 16, 2011 8:47 AM >> >> > To: [email protected] >> >> > Subject: RE: Code reference for replacing remote end inspectors test withalisted Test N' Drain Valve.... >> >> > >> >> > 2H2+O2<->2H2O >> >> > I imagine a 1x2-0 transparent sprig- the water looks more bubbly at the top. >> >> > I remove the water, now I just have air, right? Half the time. From the >> >> > chemistry law of mass action, half the time the bubble is 'full of air', and >> >> > the other half it is 'full of water'. The right side of the above reaction >> >> > is water in the vapor state. Low pressure favors dissociation (right to >> >> > left), high pressure goes left to right. As the temperature and pressure go >> >> > up and down, the reaction goes more one way than the other, to maintain >> >> > 'dynamic equilibria'. The same thing happens when some air or some water is >> >> > removed. Instead of thinking each bubble is air half the time and water the >> >> > other half, it might be equivalent to think half the bubbles are air and the >> >> > other half water- if so, I am shocked by the practical implication: say >> >> > after the hydro, or drain down and recharge, a fitter spends an hour going >> >> > around to the high points getting the air out of the water--- 30 minutes of >> >> > that time was spent getting the water out of the water! :) And what does the >> >> > 4/5 nitrogen do during the reaction? Maybe it elopes with the carbon in the >> >> > steel, and they name every one of their kids Mic Foreman. The only >> >> > explanation I have been able to come up with for myself as to why, given >> >> > systems across the street from each other, one has mic and false alarm >> >> > problems but the other one does not, is simply one has continuous high >> >> > pressure maintenance, i.e., jockey pump, and the other does not. It has to >> >> > be deeper than this, but it might be a start-- some stats would be nice. >> >> > >> >> > -----Original Message----- >> >> > From: Bobby McCullough [mailto:[email protected]] >> >> > Sent: Saturday, January 15, 2011 2:13 PM >> >> > To: [email protected] >> >> > Subject: RE: Code reference for replacing remote end inspectors test >> >> > withalisted Test N' Drain Valve.... >> >> > >> >> > Venting the air has been around a long time but I don't believe it is an >> >> > everyday practice nor is it required by code (yet). A listed, automatic >> >> > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) >> >> > _______________________________________________ >> >> > Sprinklerforum mailing list >> >> > [email protected] >> >> > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >> >> > >> >> > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] >> >> > >> >> > To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] >> >> > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) >> >> > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Ron Greenman >> >> Instructor >> >> Fire Protection Engineering Technology >> >> Bates Technical College >> >> 1101 So. Yakima Ave. >> >> Tacoma, WA 98405 >> >> >> >> [email protected] >> >> >> >> http://www.bates.ctc.edu/fireprotection/ >> >> >> >> 253.680.7346 >> >> 253.576.9700 (cell) >> >> >> >> Member: >> >> AFSA, SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, NFSA, AFAA, ASEE, NIBS, WSAFM, WFC >> >> >> >> They are happy men whose natures sort with their vocations. -Francis >> >> Bacon, essayist, philosopher, and statesman (1561-1626) >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> Sprinklerforum mailing list >> >> [email protected] >> >> http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >> >> >> >> For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] >> >> >> >> To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] >> >> (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Sprinklerforum mailing list >> > [email protected] >> > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >> > >> > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] >> > >> > To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] >> > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) >> > >> >> >> >> -- >> Ron Greenman >> Instructor >> Fire Protection Engineering Technology >> Bates Technical College >> 1101 So. Yakima Ave. >> Tacoma, WA 98405 >> >> [email protected] >> >> http://www.bates.ctc.edu/fireprotection/ >> >> 253.680.7346 >> 253.576.9700 (cell) >> >> Member: >> AFSA, SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, NFSA, AFAA, ASEE, NIBS, WSAFM, WFC >> >> They are happy men whose natures sort with their vocations. -Francis >> Bacon, essayist, philosopher, and statesman (1561-1626) >> _______________________________________________ >> Sprinklerforum mailing list >> [email protected] >> http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >> >> For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] >> >> To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] >> (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > > To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > -- Ron Greenman Instructor Fire Protection Engineering Technology Bates Technical College 1101 So. Yakima Ave. Tacoma, WA 98405 [email protected] http://www.bates.ctc.edu/fireprotection/ 253.680.7346 253.576.9700 (cell) Member: AFSA, SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, NFSA, AFAA, ASEE, NIBS, WSAFM, WFC They are happy men whose natures sort with their vocations. -Francis Bacon, essayist, philosopher, and statesman (1561-1626) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
