Does he want to argue that the space IS limited access? You cannot walk into the space from an adjacent area, there are no stairs directly opening into the space, etc. In order to access the space someone has to take extra measures such as getting a ladder, that would make it limited access.
Since it's an ACT ceiling, there is no provision for storage, the ceiling won't support it. You can't crawl up into the space and work, you have to remove tiles and you would be working off a ladder or scaffold from below. He's way off base. Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 CH2MHILL Extension 74102 [email protected] -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Martin, Matthew Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2011 7:25 PM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Interstitial Space Thank you all for your input. It has helped me confirm that my argument is on the right track. We are arguing about $190,000. They want to pull from a change that is about 80% complete. I have received a new rebuttal from the architect it is; Per NFPA 13 8.14.1.2.2 (2002) "noncombustible and limited combustible concealed spaces with limited access and not permitting occupancy or storage of combustibles shall not require sprinkler protection. The space shall be considered a concealed space even with small openings such as those used as return air for a plenum", sprinkling of interstitial space above ACT (i.e. classrooms) is required. ACT is not considered limited access to the concealed space. All portion of an ACT ceiling is accessible Is his contention that acoustical tile ceiling is accessible. My argument will be that no one will be occupying that space and nothing will be stored in that space. The only reason anyone will be up there is for servicing something. An ACT suspended ceiling fits into this code section. Thanks, Matt Matthew Martin CQC Manager Suffolk Construction Company, Inc. Direct: 323-781-1778 Cell: 949-892-7419 www.suffolkconstruction.com Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail-----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Steve Leyton Sent: Monday, March 07, 2011 3:17 PM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Interstitial Space 2001 CBC allows a 4-story building if Type II- FR. It allows only two stories if Type II-One Hour. If you're sure that the buildings are II-FR and if return air is ducted, then it sounds like a construction documents conflict and I would agree with you that sprinklers may not be required by code. Steve -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Martin, Matthew Sent: Monday, March 07, 2011 2:37 PM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Interstitial Space I should amend my last remarks; The three buildings that are using sprinklers as a fire resistive substitution WE ARE installing sprinklers in the interstitial space. It is the four story Type II-FR buildings where we are arguing with the design team. There is no note on the plans to use fire sprinklers a substitution at those buildings. So the "note" is listed on three buildings and note listed on three other buildings. Matthew Martin CQC Manager Suffolk Construction Company, Inc. Direct: 323-781-1778 Cell: 949-892-7419 www.suffolkconstruction.com Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail-----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Gregg Fontes Sent: Monday, March 07, 2011 1:23 PM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Interstitial Space We have done many DSA projects in our neck of California, if sprinklers are used for substitutions, above ceilings are sprinkled. No and, if, or buts. Thanks, Gregg Fontes Cen-Cal Fire Systems, Inc. 209-334-9119 -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Steve Leyton Sent: Monday, March 07, 2011 1:18 PM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Interstitial Space Sorry dude, see CSFM 03-30: http://osfm.fire.ca.gov/codeinterpretation/pdf/2003/03_030.pdf Pursuant to a question regarding the use of sprinklers in non-combustible interstitial space to satisfy Sect. 508 of 2001 CBC, the answer is: "When an automatic sprinkler system is used for fire resistive substitution, complete sprinkler coverage is required. Sprinkler omissions allowed by NFPA 13 are not permitted in this case." Steve -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Martin, Matthew Sent: Monday, March 07, 2011 1:12 PM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Interstitial Space We are on the 2001 CBC. Type II FR can be as high as 4 stories. We have six buildings on this project. three of the buildings noted on the Building Code Data Table that sprinklers are used for fire resistive substitution. The interstitial space above the classrooms is used only for relief air. The return air is connected to the duct system. I am relying on IR9-1 2.3 for backing up the my argument against the "requirement" of uprights in the areas not noted as using sprinklers in lieu of fire resistive construction. All the space above the ceilings is non-combustible and the construction between floors is 2 hour construction. The following is from the table for the specific Building I am dealing with. BUILDING 2 SMALL LEARNING CENTERS FIRE SPRINKLERS FULLY SPRINKLERED FIRE RESISTIVE REQUIREMENTS (CBC TABLE 6-A) BEARING WALLS - EXTERIOR 4 - SEC. 603.3.1 BEARING WALLS - INTERIOR 2 NONBEARING WALLS - EXTERIOR 4 - SEC. 603.3.1 STRUCTURAL FRAME 2 PARTITIONS - PERMANENT 1 SHAFT ENCLOSURES 2 FLOORS AND FLOOR-CEILING 2 ROOFS AND ROOF-CEILINGS 1 - SEC. 603.5 EXTERIOR DOORS AND WINDOWS SEC 603.3.2 Matthew Martin CQC Manager Suffolk Construction Company, Inc. Direct: 323-781-1778 Cell: 949-892-7419 www.suffolkconstruction.com Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail-----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Steve Leyton Sent: Monday, March 07, 2011 12:39 PM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Interstitial Space I've been in meeting that prevented me from chiming in earlier. You have opened one of the great buckets of worms that DSA has in their closet, but I should caution you that there are a couple of California interps and code requirements that absolutely may compel the installation of sprinklers in non-combustible attics and interstitial spaces. I'm assuming that this is a deferred submittal, yes? And as such you're working under 2007 CBC? If so, my first question is, are sprinklers being used by the architect in lieu of fire-rated construction? A Type II building can only be 2-stories if it's II-B, so in order to make it II-A they will have to spray the structure with Monokote or use the sprinklers. And that's to get three floors - to get the fourth they have to count the sprinklers. And for E-occupancy, you can't take both an area increase in addition to the height increase (CSFM amendment) without some alternative means and methods. CSFM Formal Interpretation 03-30 states that where sprinklers are used in lieu of fire resistive construction, all areas of the building - including interstitial and concealed spaces - shall be sprinklered regardless of combustibility of structure. I would also call your attention to 907.2.3.6.1 which is the requirement for smoke detection in "ceiling-plenums" where interstitial spaces are used for return air. In an e-occupancy, such spaces require smoke detection or sprinklers in the plenum spaces, regardless of combustibility. Did you review the architect's code analysis? Do they note that sprinklers are being taken in lieu of fire-resistive construction and/or detection in plenum spaces? Steve Leyton Sick To My Stomach That I Can Recite All of That From Memory -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Martin, Matthew Sent: Monday, March 07, 2011 11:50 AM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Interstitial Space The heat detectors were specifically excluded from the drawings Matthew Martin CQC Manager Suffolk Construction Company, Inc. Direct: 323-781-1778 Cell: 949-892-7419 www.suffolkconstruction.com Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail-----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of George Church Sent: Monday, March 07, 2011 11:48 AM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Interstitial Space If you end up with "HERE'S THE EXTRA YOU OWE US" then yes, you're on the right track. Might be you owe em a credit from the FA guy for the detectors not installed, but I'll bet the SSU were a lot more. Taking their everywhere and completely would have you providing sprinklers 16" on center above all the wall cavities formed by vertical metal studs, inside all the ductwork, and in California- I can't even render a guess as to what other cavities might require protection. George Church Rowe Sprinkler Systems, Inc. PO Box 407, Middleburg, PA 17842 877-324-ROWE 570-837-6335 fax [email protected] -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Martin, Matthew Sent: Monday, March 07, 2011 2:41 PM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Interstitial Space Thank you for all the answers so far. Here is some further clarifications. Our project is a new high school in Los Angeles , CA. The buildings in question are 4 story classroom buildings with the space between floors of about 36"-40" of non combustible space. The argument we are having is that the upright sprinklers are not required based on NFPA 8.14.1.2 (2002). Many of you have confirmed our argument, thank you. The design team directed us to install them about eight months ago and planned on paying us for the work. Now they are saying they were required because fully means "everywhere and completely." Part of my argument back will be that they wanted the upright sprinklers installed in lieu of heat detectors. It is heat detectors that are required for activation of the fire alarm system. The sprinkler system ( uprights) here is not being used as a suppression system but as an activation system. Am I on the right track? Matthew Martin CQC Manager Suffolk Construction Company, Inc. Direct: 323-781-1778 Cell: 949-892-7419 www.suffolkconstruction.com Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail-----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of George Church Sent: Monday, March 07, 2011 11:23 AM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Interstitial Space Clearly there's a HUGE dif between an interstitial space above a drop ceiling and below the deck above, and the vision you made me remember of an animal research lab at Merck with 15' high interstitial spaces with grated floors throughout. In that one, sprinklers were installed in the noncombustible concealed space because with the doorways accessing the grated platform, it was no longer concealed. Another point to consider when dealing with pharmaceuticals, clean rooms, bio and nanotechnologies, is the dollar values involved (or business interruption) may cause an Owner or insurance carrier to ask for sprinkler protection beyond that required by minimum consensus standards. George Church Rowe Sprinkler Systems, Inc. PO Box 407, Middleburg, PA 17842 877-324-ROWE 570-837-6335 fax [email protected] -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of [email protected] Sent: Monday, March 07, 2011 2:11 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: Interstitial Space For many industrial projects, especial biotech and microelectronics, interstitial space is commonly used to describe the space between floors - especially where the spaces are tall enough to accommodate personnel. I am now gun shy enough to where I plan full automatic sprinkler protection throughout interstitial spaces. We once got burned where the local AHJ's signed off in writing that the interstitial spaces did not have to be sprinklered only to be told a year later that they would require protection based on a new evaluation by a code consultant. We had been told that minimal plastic drain pipe and fire resistant cable was acceptable. If the interstitial "floor" is a walkable ceiling, you will more than likely lose the battle even if the space is non-combustible and has non-combustible contents because the argument will be that storage would be possible. Regards, Jim James L (Jim) Roberts, PE/SET |FLUOR|Central Operations| [email protected]|IODC 20.5149 |864.281.5149| www.fluor.com From: Todd Williams <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Date: 03/07/2011 01:49 PM Subject: Re: Interstitial Space Sent by: [email protected] Interstitial and concealed can be assumed synonymous in our situation. Interstitial tends to apply more to things like spaces between walls. At 01:46 PM 3/7/2011, you wrote: >Is the space combustible? >On Mar 7, 2011 12:39 PM, "Martin, Matthew" <[email protected]> >wrote: > > Can anyone tell me what the NFPA says about the requirements of sprinklers >in the interstitial space. What is the definition of " Interstitial Space"? > > Also where in the NFPA is the term Interstitial Space used. > > We have an Architect who says that a fully sprinklered building includes >sprinklers in all the interstitial spaces. > > > > Thanks in advance, > > > > > > > > Matthew Martin > > CQC Manager > > Suffolk Construction Company, Inc. > > Direct: 323-781-1778 > > Cell: 949-892-7419 > > > > www.suffolkconstruction.com > > > > Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail > > _______________________________________________ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > [email protected] > > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > > > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: > > [email protected] > > > > To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] > > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) >_______________________________________________ >Sprinklerforum mailing list >[email protected] >http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > >For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > >To Unsubscribe, send an email >to:[email protected] >(Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) Todd G. 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