Joe, You said, "Some homes have no options but antifreeze." That's absolutely not true. With construction techniques and now with dry residential, you can protect any home with sprinklers and you can do it affordably. Do the right thing here. The right thing is not to put an antifreeze solution in that has the potential to hurt them. Let's all remember that while it is absolutely our job to make money doing what we do, this industry requires that we also have the ethics to do the right thing while we make that money. Work with your customers to do the right thing. Sure, you could offer to help them on pricing (the market is gonna make you do that right now anyway....) and you could explain some of the things that have happened. Even UL wasn't ready for the results they encountered. NFPA is helping you out here. They are giving you someone to point to and say, "y'know... I followed their codes and now they say that it isn't good enough." And you can say, "You're lucky that we are your fire protection contractor and that we know about this. We'll help you avoid a potentially indescribable problem by changing your system out." Doing the right thing has always been a tough pill to swallow. But it is what we must do in our industry. And if your relationship is what you want it to be with your clients, they will know that you are doing the right thing.
It should be recognized that the above is my opinion as a member of the NFPA, and has not been processed as a formal interpretation in accordance with the NFPA Regulations Governing Committee Projects and should therefore not be considered, nor relied upon, as the official position of the the NFPA, nor any of their technical committees. Sincerely, Cecil Bilbo Academy of Fire Sprinkler Technology Champaign, IL 217.607.0325 www.sprinkleracademy.com [email protected] OUR STUDENTS SAVE LIVES!! > From: [email protected] > To: [email protected] > Subject: RE: antifreeze solutions > Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2011 13:19:43 -0600 > > This is my point, I have long term customers/clients, all of a sudden the > systems I installed are no longer safe and you Mr. Owner are going to have > to replace them at your expense. I have parking garages, custom homes worth > millions, hotels that cannot just be easily changed. Some homes have no > options but antifreeze. Am I supposed to tell them I'm sorry but I can't > help you and now they are on their own. This is where NFPA screwed all of us > and the pooch. Enough about this, I'll step off my soap box. > > Joe Burtell > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Ron Greenman > Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 10:19 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: antifreeze solutions > > There are always more than one alternative. After 911 three solutions to the > problem of planes hitting buildings that were proposed were hardening all > tall buildings, bridges, etc., Homeland Security, and invading Afghanistan > and tracking down the bad guys. Other alternatives were ground all airplane > permanently, racially profile and expel all Muslims or apparent Muslims, and > any other number of impracticable, expensive, and illegal solutions. A > couple expensive ones (Homeland Security and war) were tried with to now > successful results (no recurring 911 type incident ). I can think of lots of > expensive solutions to existing systems and several less expensive solutions > to future systems. The upping the anti-freeze to above code limits could be > construed as "illegal" and if you knowingly do so then I'd suspect you would > be liable. If you tell the owner what percentage of anti freeze he needs, > what type, and where to get it, with the caveat that you don't recommend he > do this, that is non-code compliant, and then get that statement that says > you explained everything to him, , suggested he not do the wrong thing, > refused to do the wrong thing yourself, and then it's all on him to decide > if that's the alternative he wants to pursue. Or, and I'm sure at great > expense, get all the piping within the heated envelope. > > On Thu, Mar 17, 2011 at 8:57 AM, Joe Burtell <[email protected]> wrote: > > The problem is, you know there is no alternative but to refresh any > > system in my area to 60% glycerin even though I know it is not what NFPA > 25 says. > > That will put me on the hook even though I inform the owner and have > > them sign something that they understand. Now how is that a good solution? > > > > Joe Burtell > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [email protected] > > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of George > > Church > > Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 9:30 AM > > To: [email protected] > > Subject: RE: antifreeze solutions > > > > The responsibility is on the building OWNER, not you. > > I don't argue the point you may look stupid :) but the situation can > > be > > explained: > > Excessive concentrations of AF have been discovered to cause > > explosions and kill people. > > We haven't got an answer yet. > > Most owners understand that. > > Just as we have nuke plants creating waste that in a generation or > > more, we have yet to address longterm as a nation. > > How did you expect NFPA to develop an alternative solution- they > > aren't DuPont. > > > > George Church > > Rowe Sprinkler Systems, Inc. > > PO Box 407, Middleburg, PA 17842 > > 877-324-ROWE 570-837-6335 fax > > [email protected] > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [email protected] > > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Joe > > Burtell > > Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 11:15 AM > > To: [email protected] > > Subject: RE: antifreeze solutions > > > > Ya, maybe back in 2001 they could have addressed the issue when it > > first had a incident. I don't disagree with the problem, just the > > solution. The limits do not work for any systems in the states we > > work. What kind of a solution is find an alternative system? Does not > > solve the problem and leaves me looking like the stupid one. NFPA > > needs to do 100% better for existing systems. They leave me hanging with > all the liability. > > > > Joe Burtell > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [email protected] > > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of George > > Church > > Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 9:05 AM > > To: [email protected] > > Subject: RE: antifreeze solutions > > > > Could NFPA have done anything but respond quickly and thoroughly to > > sprinkler systems causing explosions and deaths? > > I'm just thankful the NAHB didn't pick it up and run with it in our > > current battle for the IRC mandate in PA. > > > > George Church > > Rowe Sprinkler Systems, Inc. > > PO Box 407, Middleburg, PA 17842 > > 877-324-ROWE 570-837-6335 fax > > [email protected] > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [email protected] > > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Joe > > Burtell > > Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 11:00 AM > > To: [email protected]; [email protected] > > Subject: RE: antifreeze solutions > > > > I am not aware of any such product. I heard a rumor Lubrizol was > > working on something. I would like to thank NFPA for making such a > > mess out of this anti-freeze issue. What am I supposed to tell the > > owner when he asks me who is going to pay for this on existing systems? > > > > Joe Burtell > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [email protected] > > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Charles > > McKnight > > Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 7:38 AM > > To: [email protected] > > Subject: antifreeze solutions > > > > With the new TIA's being issued on NFPA 25 concerning the allowable > > concentrations of the standard propylene glycol or glycerin only being > > able to protect down to -6 or -19 a problem now exists for the > > northern areas where the temperatures are know to reach below the limit. > > Thus my question: Does anyone know of a product that will meet the > > NFPA requirements for use as an antifreeze solution that is also > > classified as nontoxic and nonflammable? > > > > Thanks for any help > > > > Charles McKnight > > Battelle Energy Alliance > > Idaho Falls, Idaho > > > > ps: This is my second try to send this to the list so I hope you only > > see it once. > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > [email protected] > > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > > > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > > > > To Unsubscribe, send an email > > to:[email protected] > > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > [email protected] > > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > > > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > > > > To Unsubscribe, send an email > > to:[email protected] > > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > _______________________________________________ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > [email protected] > > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > > > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > > > > To Unsubscribe, send an email > > to:[email protected] > > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > [email protected] > > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > > > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > > > > To Unsubscribe, send an email > > to:[email protected] > > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > _______________________________________________ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > [email protected] > > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > > > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > > > > To Unsubscribe, send an email > > to:[email protected] > > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > [email protected] > > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > > > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > > > > To Unsubscribe, send an email > > to:[email protected] > > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > > > > > -- > Ron Greenman > Instructor > Fire Protection Engineering Technology > Bates Technical College > 1101 So. Yakima Ave. > Tacoma, WA 98405 > > [email protected] > > http://www.bates.ctc.edu/fireprotection/ > > 253.680.7346 > 253.576.9700 (cell) > > Member: > ASEE, SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, AFSA, NFSA, AFAA, NIBS, WSAFM, WFC > > They are happy men whose natures sort with their vocations. -Francis Bacon, > essayist, philosopher, and statesman (1561-1626) > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > > To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > > To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
