Joe,
I don't see the NFPA as "walking away". I see them as making responsible moves
to protect people. As soon as they were aware of an issue that could impact
someone's life safety they acted.
We have long known that antifreeze could initially increase the Heat Release
Rate of a fire. But we have also known that when followed quickly by water,
the goal of control would be reached. The VOLUNTEERS that make up the
Committees used the knowledge they had at the time to make rules for the common
good. You, me and every other member of the NFPA that installed an antifreeze
system expressed our agreement with that collective knowledge.
We have enjoyed an excellent reputation for effectiveness in our industry.
Getting a black eye every now and then means we are willing to mix it up. We
engage technology and progress in this industry. We take risks when we do. As
an industry we have done a remarkable job of identifying future risk and
eliminating potential problems. This past year we identified an issue with
antifreeze. We did some AWESOME research to discover the truth. We have acted
on that truth.
Let's learn our lessons from things like gaskets in sprinkler heads and
antifreeze at high concentration. And let's correct our actions as we learn.
And let's get on with it.
It should be recognized that the above is my opinion as a member of the NFPA,
and has not been processed as a formal interpretation in accordance with the
NFPA Regulations Governing Committee Projects and should therefore not be
considered, nor relied upon, as the official position of the the NFPA, nor any
of their technical committees.
Sincerely,
Cecil Bilbo
Academy of Fire Sprinkler Technology
Champaign, IL
217.607.0325
www.sprinkleracademy.com
[email protected]
OUR STUDENTS SAVE LIVES!!
> From: [email protected]
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: RE: antifreeze solutions
> Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2011 08:33:34 -0600
>
> Thanks Cecil but I am only referring to existing homes and buildings. I know
> what to do with any new stuff. Just remember the mistakes Central made and
> what it cost them with the recalls. I see this as the same thing. NFPA has
> made a big mistake and they just get to walk away?
>
> Joe Burtell
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected]
> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Sprinkler
> Academy - C Bilbo
> Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 8:56 PM
> To: FORUM
> Subject: RE: antifreeze solutions
>
>
> Joe,
>
> You said, "Some homes have no options but antifreeze." That's absolutely
> not true. With construction techniques and now with dry residential, you
> can protect any home with sprinklers and you can do it affordably.
>
> Do the right thing here. The right thing is not to put an antifreeze
> solution in that has the potential to hurt them.
>
> Let's all remember that while it is absolutely our job to make money doing
> what we do, this industry requires that we also have the ethics to do the
> right thing while we make that money.
>
> Work with your customers to do the right thing. Sure, you could offer to
> help them on pricing (the market is gonna make you do that right now
> anyway....) and you could explain some of the things that have happened.
> Even UL wasn't ready for the results they encountered.
>
> NFPA is helping you out here. They are giving you someone to point to and
> say, "y'know... I followed their codes and now they say that it isn't good
> enough." And you can say, "You're lucky that we are your fire protection
> contractor and that we know about this. We'll help you avoid a potentially
> indescribable problem by changing your system out."
>
> Doing the right thing has always been a tough pill to swallow. But it is
> what we must do in our industry. And if your relationship is what you want
> it to be with your clients, they will know that you are doing the right
> thing.
>
> It should be recognized that the above is my opinion as a member of the
> NFPA, and has not been processed as a formal interpretation in accordance
> with the NFPA Regulations Governing Committee Projects and should therefore
> not be considered, nor relied upon, as the official position of the the
> NFPA, nor any of their technical committees.
>
> Sincerely,
>
>
> Cecil Bilbo
> Academy of Fire Sprinkler Technology
> Champaign, IL
> 217.607.0325
> www.sprinkleracademy.com
> [email protected]
>
> OUR STUDENTS SAVE LIVES!!
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > From: [email protected]
> > To: [email protected]
> > Subject: RE: antifreeze solutions
> > Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2011 13:19:43 -0600
> >
> > This is my point, I have long term customers/clients, all of a sudden
> > the systems I installed are no longer safe and you Mr. Owner are going
> > to have to replace them at your expense. I have parking garages,
> > custom homes worth millions, hotels that cannot just be easily
> > changed. Some homes have no options but antifreeze. Am I supposed to
> > tell them I'm sorry but I can't help you and now they are on their
> > own. This is where NFPA screwed all of us and the pooch. Enough about
> this, I'll step off my soap box.
> >
> > Joe Burtell
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [email protected]
> > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Ron
> > Greenman
> > Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 10:19 AM
> > To: [email protected]
> > Subject: Re: antifreeze solutions
> >
> > There are always more than one alternative. After 911 three solutions
> > to the problem of planes hitting buildings that were proposed were
> > hardening all tall buildings, bridges, etc., Homeland Security, and
> > invading Afghanistan and tracking down the bad guys. Other
> > alternatives were ground all airplane permanently, racially profile
> > and expel all Muslims or apparent Muslims, and any other number of
> > impracticable, expensive, and illegal solutions. A couple expensive
> > ones (Homeland Security and war) were tried with to now successful
> > results (no recurring 911 type incident ). I can think of lots of
> > expensive solutions to existing systems and several less expensive
> > solutions to future systems. The upping the anti-freeze to above code
> > limits could be construed as "illegal" and if you knowingly do so then
> > I'd suspect you would be liable. If you tell the owner what percentage
> > of anti freeze he needs, what type, and where to get it, with the
> > caveat that you don't recommend he do this, that is non-code
> > compliant, and then get that statement that says you explained
> > everything to him, , suggested he not do the wrong thing, refused to
> > do the wrong thing yourself, and then it's all on him to decide if that's
> the alternative he wants to pursue. Or, and I'm sure at great expense, get
> all the piping within the heated envelope.
> >
> > On Thu, Mar 17, 2011 at 8:57 AM, Joe Burtell <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > The problem is, you know there is no alternative but to refresh any
> > > system in my area to 60% glycerin even though I know it is not what
> > > NFPA
> > 25 says.
> > > That will put me on the hook even though I inform the owner and have
> > > them sign something that they understand. Now how is that a good
> solution?
> > >
> > > Joe Burtell
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: [email protected]
> > > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of
> > > George Church
> > > Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 9:30 AM
> > > To: [email protected]
> > > Subject: RE: antifreeze solutions
> > >
> > > The responsibility is on the building OWNER, not you.
> > > I don't argue the point you may look stupid :) but the situation can
> > > be
> > > explained:
> > > Excessive concentrations of AF have been discovered to cause
> > > explosions and kill people.
> > > We haven't got an answer yet.
> > > Most owners understand that.
> > > Just as we have nuke plants creating waste that in a generation or
> > > more, we have yet to address longterm as a nation.
> > > How did you expect NFPA to develop an alternative solution- they
> > > aren't DuPont.
> > >
> > > George Church
> > > Rowe Sprinkler Systems, Inc.
> > > PO Box 407, Middleburg, PA 17842
> > > 877-324-ROWE 570-837-6335 fax
> > > [email protected]
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: [email protected]
> > > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Joe
> > > Burtell
> > > Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 11:15 AM
> > > To: [email protected]
> > > Subject: RE: antifreeze solutions
> > >
> > > Ya, maybe back in 2001 they could have addressed the issue when it
> > > first had a incident. I don't disagree with the problem, just the
> > > solution. The limits do not work for any systems in the states we
> > > work. What kind of a solution is find an alternative system? Does
> > > not solve the problem and leaves me looking like the stupid one.
> > > NFPA needs to do 100% better for existing systems. They leave me
> > > hanging with
> > all the liability.
> > >
> > > Joe Burtell
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: [email protected]
> > > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of
> > > George Church
> > > Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 9:05 AM
> > > To: [email protected]
> > > Subject: RE: antifreeze solutions
> > >
> > > Could NFPA have done anything but respond quickly and thoroughly to
> > > sprinkler systems causing explosions and deaths?
> > > I'm just thankful the NAHB didn't pick it up and run with it in our
> > > current battle for the IRC mandate in PA.
> > >
> > > George Church
> > > Rowe Sprinkler Systems, Inc.
> > > PO Box 407, Middleburg, PA 17842
> > > 877-324-ROWE 570-837-6335 fax
> > > [email protected]
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: [email protected]
> > > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Joe
> > > Burtell
> > > Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 11:00 AM
> > > To: [email protected]; [email protected]
> > > Subject: RE: antifreeze solutions
> > >
> > > I am not aware of any such product. I heard a rumor Lubrizol was
> > > working on something. I would like to thank NFPA for making such a
> > > mess out of this anti-freeze issue. What am I supposed to tell the
> > > owner when he asks me who is going to pay for this on existing systems?
> > >
> > > Joe Burtell
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: [email protected]
> > > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of
> > > Charles McKnight
> > > Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 7:38 AM
> > > To: [email protected]
> > > Subject: antifreeze solutions
> > >
> > > With the new TIA's being issued on NFPA 25 concerning the allowable
> > > concentrations of the standard propylene glycol or glycerin only
> > > being able to protect down to -6 or -19 a problem now exists for the
> > > northern areas where the temperatures are know to reach below the limit.
> > > Thus my question: Does anyone know of a product that will meet the
> > > NFPA requirements for use as an antifreeze solution that is also
> > > classified as nontoxic and nonflammable?
> > >
> > > Thanks for any help
> > >
> > > Charles McKnight
> > > Battelle Energy Alliance
> > > Idaho Falls, Idaho
> > >
> > > ps: This is my second try to send this to the list so I hope you
> > > only see it once.
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
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> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Ron Greenman
> > Instructor
> > Fire Protection Engineering Technology Bates Technical College
> > 1101 So. Yakima Ave.
> > Tacoma, WA 98405
> >
> > [email protected]
> >
> > http://www.bates.ctc.edu/fireprotection/
> >
> > 253.680.7346
> > 253.576.9700 (cell)
> >
> > Member:
> > ASEE, SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, AFSA, NFSA, AFAA, NIBS, WSAFM, WFC
> >
> > They are happy men whose natures sort with their vocations. -Francis
> > Bacon, essayist, philosopher, and statesman (1561-1626)
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