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20-24 Akerley Boulevard . Unit 6 . Dartmouth . NS . B3B 1M3 Burnside Industrial Park T +1.902.468.8499 F +1.902.481.2772 C +1.902.221.5741 [email protected] www.wolseleyinc.ca -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Dewayne Martinez Sent: Friday, November 18, 2011 12:51 PM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: fire pump suction piping - flushing Here you go ..... Dear Mr. Martinez, The underground lead from the point of connection to the city main into the building is the piping NFPA 20 is referring too. I have attached some commentary from the 2010 edition which I believe clarifies your question. 14.1.1 Flushing. Stones, gravel, blocks of wood, bottles, work gloves, and other foreign objects have been found in underground piping and piping taking suction from municipal or private water mains or water storage tanks when flushing and/or flow testing procedures are performed. Also, objects in underground piping that are quite remote from the fire pump installation and that would otherwise remain stationary during low-flow conditions may sometimes be carried into the pump during the high-volume flows required during the fire pump acceptance test. Because many of these objects can cause damage to the fire pump, flushing of suction piping prior to connection to the fire pump minimizes potential damage from foreign objects during the fire pump acceptance flow tests. See Exhibit II.14.1 for sample objects removed from underground pipe. For booster pumps taking suction from underground mains, the flushing flow rate should be at least equal to that in Table 14.1.1.1(a) or (b), or the maximum water demand, whichever is greater. The flushing flow rates given in Table 14.1.1.1(a) or (b) are based on 15 ft/sec (4.6 m/sec) water flow velocity, which is the basis for the minimum suction inlet pipe sizes in Tables 4.25(a) and (b). The minimum suction pipe inlet sizes in Tables 4.25(a) and (b) are the same for pumps of several different capacities. Experience has shown that the fl ow rates established in Tables 14.1.1.1(a) and (b) are of sufficient velocity to clear the suction piping of debris. Additionally, most of these fl ow rates exceed the 150 percent point of the pump ratings where these pipe sizes are the minimum mandated in Tables 4.25(a) and (b). For instance, the largest pump allowed to use a minimum 5 in. (125 mm) suction pipe is one rated at 500 gpm (1893 L/min). The peak (150 percent) point for a 500 gpm (1893 L/min) pump is 750 gpm (2839 L/min). For 5 in. (125 mm) suction pipes, the fl ush rate is 920 gpm (3482 L/min). In another instance, the largest pump allowed to use an 8 in. (200 mm) suction pipe is one rated at 1500 gpm (5678 L/min). The peak (150 percent) point for a 1500 gpm (5678L/min) pump is 2250 gpm (8516 L/min). For 8 in. (200 mm) suction pipes, the flush rate is 2350 gpm (8895 L/min). For fi re pumps taking suction from a storage tank, reservoir, or wet pit, the following should be determined prior to the pump acceptance flow test: 1. No obstructing materials are in the water main, tank, reservoir, or pit. 2. Any piping to the pump suction inlet is free from obstructing material. Although field experience is such that oftentimes actual flushing is done without a measurement of the flow rate, verification of the flow rate should be determined. The actual fl ow rate can be determined using methods such as pitot readings or flowmeters described in NFPA 291, Recommended Practice for Fire Flow Testing and Marking of Hydrants (see Part III of this handbook). Flushing is normally accomplished at the maximum flow rate available from the water supply. In some jurisdictions, restrictions may be on the minimum suction pressures allowed. In most cases, the fl ow at 150 percent of the fi re pump rating should not result in unacceptable minimum residual suction pressures and should serve as an appropriate flushing flow rate. Where this scenario is not the case, actual flushing fl ow rates should at least be equal to the maximum water demand for the fi re protection system. Also important to know is that the flushing rates required by NFPA 24, Standard for the Installation of Private Fire Service Mains and Their Appurtenances, are based on a velocity of 10 ft/sec (3.1 m/sec) and not the rates required by NFPA 20. Regardless of the flushing methods used, the installing contractor should never connect piping to the underground stub-up without obtaining a copy of the Contractor's Material and Test Certificate for Underground Piping from the site utilities contractor or the underground piping installing contractor. This certificate provides verification that the underground piping has been flushed in accordance with NFPA 24 and that no debris was present in the piping system at the time of the test. -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of [email protected] Sent: Friday, November 18, 2011 10:04 AM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: fire pump suction piping - flushing Did they cite a specific chapter and verse for that decision? Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 CH2MHILL Extension 74102 [email protected] -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Dewayne Martinez Sent: Friday, November 18, 2011 10:59 AM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: fire pump suction piping - flushing Sent it NFPA20 -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Justin Reid Sent: Friday, November 18, 2011 9:58 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: fire pump suction piping - flushing Just curious... did you talk to the NFPA 20 rep? or the NFPA 24 rep? Justin Reid On Fri, Nov 18, 2011 at 10:00 AM, Dewayne Martinez <[email protected]>wrote: > NFPA confirmed that the UG is to be flushed per NFPA 20. > Thanks, > Dewayne > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] [mailto: > [email protected]] On Behalf Of George Church > Sent: Friday, November 18, 2011 8:33 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: RE: fire pump suction piping - flushing > > AFSA members can get an informal interpretation for free by contacting > tech services in Dallas- Tom W, Phil B, or Roland usually respond > pretty quickly. > > > George L. Church, Jr., CET > Rowe Sprinkler Systems, Inc. > PO Box 407, Middleburg, PA 17842 > 877-324-ROWE 570-837-6335 fax > [email protected] > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] [mailto: > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Ed Kramer > Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2011 11:55 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: RE: fire pump suction piping - flushing > > You may have to seek an interpretation from NFPA. I personally don't > think the requirements in 20 apply to the underground supply. > > Ed Kramer > Littleton, CO > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [email protected] > > [mailto:sprinklerforum- [email protected]] On Behalf Of > > Dewayne Martinez > > Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2011 9:34 AM > > To: [email protected] > > Subject: RE: fire pump suction piping - flushing > > > > Under 2-9.1 Suction pipe and fittings The suction components shall > > consist of all pipe, valves, and fittings from the pump suction > > flange to the connection to the public or private water service > > main, storage tank...... > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [email protected] > > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Ed > > Kramer > > Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2011 10:17 AM > > To: [email protected] > > Subject: RE: fire pump suction piping - flushing > > > > Dewayne, > > > > I'm going off memory, so you probably should verify this. I believe > > somewhere in NFPA 20 (the 'scope' section, maybe?), it says NFPA 20 > > requirements begin at the suction control valve. Assuming that's > > correct, any piping upstream of that is not subject to NFPA 20 > > requirements. > > Therefore the underground suction pipe need only be flushed per the > > requirements of NFPA 24, not 20. > > > > Your mileage may vary. > > Ed Kramer > > Littleton, CO > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: [email protected] > > > [mailto:sprinklerforum- > > > > > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Dewayne Martinez > > > Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2011 5:03 AM > > > To: [email protected] > > > Subject: RE: fire pump suction piping - flushing > > > > > > Sorry, > > > I had the standards flipped in my original email. I was trying to > > > confirm of I needed to use the flushing rates from NFPA 20 > > > (11-1.2, 99ed)not 24 for the UG supply pipe when a fire pump is > > > involved on a project. > > > I have been running into opposition when trying to get the UG > > > contractor to flush per 20 and just wanted to make sure they > > > needed to. I have a local consultant who works for many of the > > > AHJ's that is > > requiring this. > > > Dewayne Martinez > > > > > > Design Build Fire Protection > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > [email protected] > > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > _______________________________________________ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > [email protected] > > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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