What's the ( hazard?) difference between a balcony and a breezeway? Is the
breezeway an exit pathway?
Bv
-----Original message-----
From: "Matsuda, Richard" <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wed, Feb 13, 2013 17:04:13 GMT+00:00
Subject: RE: Exterior closets....again but different
Steve,
Are you addressing me in this email?...or some other Rick?
If you're asking my opinion, then I'll agree with what was stated by the
local AHJ in the last sentence of the original posting from Rod.
"He says show me in 13R where you can exclude....."
rick matsuda
city of dallas, building insp dept.
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Steve
Leyton
Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2013 10:25 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Exterior closets....again but different
I suppose my opinion goes to the idea (shared by most AHJ's, right
Rick?) that there is not necessarily an absolute control over what
happens in those closets after the fact. Without seeing the plans, or
knowing the size of the compartments, one could say that HOA or building
management might use them for storage in the future. Besides the
section you just cited, 2013 edition, new section 6.6.8 states, "All
situations regarding sprinkler location and position that are not
directly discussed in FPA 13R shall be in accordance with NFPA 13."
Admittedly, you could read the breezeway closet exception the other way
as it doesn't specifically say that the excepted closets would have to
be associated with a dwelling unit (i.e. of a residential-type use). It
can also be said that the revised A.1.1 in the new standard also
confuses the issue a bit. To clarify what I said last night, without
digging into the minutiae of interpretation, I agree with the AHJ that
if there's any doubt about the intent of the standard, just put in
sprinklers.
Steve
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Rod
DiBona
Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2013 8:19 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Exterior closets....again but different
Steve,
I think the following is where I went wrong with the previous post.
13R - 6.9.1 Sprinklers shall be installed in all areas except where
omission is permitted by 6.9.2 - 6.9.7.
Thanks,
Rod
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Rod
DiBona
Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2013 8:34 AM
To: [email protected]
Cc: Brent Zimiga
Subject: RE: Exterior closets....again but different
Steve,
Thank you for your response. I do agree that the contested closets are
outside the dwelling unit. I am looking but haven't found where 13R says
that areas outside the dwelling unit shall be PROTECTED by 13. I see
6.8.2.1 that says "For areas outside the dwelling unit, the design
discharge and design area criteria shall comply with NFPA 13"....No
mention of coverage?... For example, we don't sprinkler concealed
combustible and attics in 13R which are outside the dwelling unit. So
this is the heart of the issue does chapter 8 of 13 apply? Is so where
does 13R state that it does apply for protection of areas? If it does
apply, then the 13R exemptions for other areas outside the dwelling unit
trump 13 requirements? Not trying to be difficult and this is not a big
add to the project but truly want to come to an understanding on this
one. Wonder why the closets on the decks would be exempted but not a
breezeway? Egress? Thanks!
Rod at Rapid
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Steve
Leyton
Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2013 10:52 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Exterior closets....again but different
I agree with the AHJ. Exception to closets on exterior balconies
presumes they are within (or directly communicating with) dwelling unit.
If you agree that the contested closets are outside of the dwelling
unit, where is the exception in 13 that would not require sprinklers in
these compartments? Methinks you're trying to split hairs with the
"design criteria" intent argument - what do you mean by that, exactly?
If hydraulics, then the answer is yes, but 13R also states that areas
outside the dwelling unit shall be protected per 13, so I think that
Chapter 8 of 13 applies, period.
The foregoing is my opinion only, and does not necessarily represent the
opinion or intent of the Technical Committee on Residential Sprinkler
Systems.
Steve L.
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] on behalf of Rod DiBona
Sent: Tue 2/12/2013 4:25 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Exterior closets....again but different
NFPA 13R 2007- New apartment building with a breezeway on the bottom
level that is enclosed and protected with dry sidewalls. 2 closets (one
plumbing and the other electrical data) in that breezeway that only open
to the breezeway. No fuel fired equipment. No heating or air
conditioning equipment. Had it in my mind that these closets would not
have to be sprinklered. Fire marshal is disagreeing. After review I am
not so sure. Seems like the intent is to not require protection but by
the letter I can't quite get there. Am I missing something?
2007 NFPA 13R 6.9.6 - "Sprinklers shall not be required
in............(last sentence) ... "and other concealed spaces that are
not intended for living purposes or storage and do not contain fuel
fired equipment." - He pointed out that a closet is not a concealed
space...... Ok then.....
2007 NFPA 13R 6.9.7 " Sprinklers shall not be required in closets on
exterior balconies, regardless of size, as long as there are no doors or
unprotected penetrations from the closet directly into the dwelling
unit. - His point is that these closets are not on exterior
balconies....
He says that it is outside the dwelling unit and therefore protected by
NFPA 13. My comment is that I believe 2007 NFPA 13R only requires the
"design criteria" of 13 to be followed for areas outside the dwelling
unit. Clarified in section A.6.8.2.
He says show me in 13R where you can exclude.....
Thoughts?
Rod DiBona
Vice President
Rapid Fire Protection
office : (605)348-2342
fax : (605)348-0108
cell : (605)391-3553
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