Ah, Bruce has the real question. Does Ken have the answer but is playing Johnny Tightlips?
On Thu, Mar 14, 2013 at 4:22 PM, Bruce Verhei <[email protected]> wrote: > What problem is this section trying to solve? > Bv > > -----Original message----- > From: "Cahill, Christopher" <[email protected]> > To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]>, > "[email protected]" <[email protected]> > Sent: Thu, Mar 14, 2013 15:28:26 GMT+00:00 > Subject: RE: Phantom Flow > > I'd argue you are OK because you are not using density/area method. > Section always talks about area. You have no minimum area. > > Chris Cahill, PE* > Senior Fire Protection Engineer, Aviation & Facilities Group > Burns & McDonnell > 8201 Norman Center Drive > Bloomington, MN 55437 > Phone: 952.656.3652 > Fax: 952.229.2923 > [email protected] > www.burnsmcd.com > > Proud to be one of FORTUNE's 100 Best Companies to Work For > *Registered in: MN > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] [mailto: > [email protected]] On Behalf Of > [email protected] > Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2013 9:58 AM > To: [email protected]; [email protected] > Subject: RE: Phantom Flow > > Wow. We are doing a project with a canopy that I don't think needs to be > sprinkler but that isn't the point. The canopy is 3'-11" wide, sloped > greater than 2 in 12, requires a dry system and is 600' long. Section > 11.2.3.4.2 requires 7 heads maximum. Would 23.4.4.1.1.4 apply and if so how > would it be applied? The minimum design area would be 0.20 gpm over 2,535 > sqft. The canopy is 2,400 sqft and only has one branch line with 48 > sprinklers. > > Ron F > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] [mailto: > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Ed Kramer > Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2013 6:51 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: RE: Phantom Flow > > Chris, the way I read 23.4.4.1.1.4 is that it's optional. In your case, > I'd calc 2,000 sf of dry system plus 1,900 sf of wet. Since it's all light > hazard, it shouldn't get ugly. > > I gotta believe there will be some tweaking to that section, though. I > read the ROP and ROC - Tracey's 480 sf canopy (page 88 of the ROC) is > probably being protected by 4 sprinklers, but could require a 4" supply > pipe & dry valve since the phantom flow is added at the end of the dry > x-main. That doesn't seem reasonable to me. > > Ed Kramer > Lawrence, KS > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [email protected] [mailto:sprinklerforum- > > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Cahill, Christopher > > Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2013 4:46 PM > > To: [email protected] > > Subject: Phantom Flow > > > > Not what you think by the subject. Working out of NFPA 13 '13 > > 23.4.4.1.1.5. This is new and confusing us greatly. > > > > I have a 20,000 sq.ft. heated LH building. And a 2,000 sq.ft. area > > that needs a dry system. Not an auxiliary dry system. My starting > > required design is 0.1/3,900. I calc the system at 2,000 sq.ft. (cuz > > that's all I have) and get for discussion sake 220 gpm. Then I > > subtract from 390 > > (3,900 x 0.1 per 23.4.4.1.1.5) and I get 170 gpm. Then I go back to > > the calc and redo but this time I add 170 at the end of the main. Now > > this has the effect of overflowing all the rest of the BL's such my > > final calc is more than 390. > > > > !@#$^# > > > > What if I have a 500 sq.ft. building and the next building is 20 miles > > away @#$@# are we calc'ing this extra area for? > > > > Can someone 'splain if we got it right and then why in the world this > > got into the standard? > > > > Chris Cahill, PE* > > Senior Fire Protection Engineer, Aviation & Facilities Group Burns & > > McDonnell > > 8201 Norman Center Drive > > Bloomington, MN 55437 > > Phone: 952.656.3652 > > Fax: 952.229.2923 > > [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> > > www.burnsmcd.com<http://www.burnsmcd.com/> > > > > Proud to be one of FORTUNE's 100 Best Companies to Work For > > *Registered > > in: MN > > > > > > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was > > scrubbed... > > URL: > > <http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/private/sprinklerforum/atta > > ch ments/20130313/26a3e378/attachment.html> > > _______________________________________________ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > [email protected] > > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: < > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/private/sprinklerforum/attachments/20130314/ead3dbe9/attachment.html > > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > -- Ron Greenman Instructor Fire Protection Engineering Technology Bates Technical College 1101 So. 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