Zachary. If Ben's a true Ponderosan, he's organically opposed to paying taxes at all, let alone higher taxes. The cost of fire to our communities is too high for the revenue bases that fire departments have to work with. Response times are getting longer. Some cities with extraordinary financial problems (Detroit) have experienced 60-minute emergency response times for certain calls. Fire department apparatus inspection intervals are being stretched. If crew sizes are reduced, shifts run into overtime, then local news watchdogs seize the story and tell of fire captains making $100K a year with overtime and communities react to that as if someone's being taken for a ride. Fire incidents are holding steady in number, but not the cost of these incidents and line of duty deaths aren't down at all. Those two last statistics tell of fires that are more impactful, due almost certainly to the high combustibility and levels of potential energy in modern fixtures and furnishings comprised mostly of composite wood products and synthetics. The heavy timber construction of the Ponderosa has been long since discarded for reasons of cost and manufacturing efficiencies.
Ron's allusion to the ecological impact is also valid - higher volume hose streams carry fire debris into our storm drain systems; the remains get carted to landfills. Then insurance companies take over and regardless of how the claim is handled at this particular fire scene, the cost is passed on to all of us in one form or another. Ron and I had a similar discussion with a friend of his on Facebook regarding the costs of providing fire suppression services to "land rights" minded folks who build their home in the Wildland Urban Interface, but are opposed to sprinklers, higher levels of fire resistance in their homes and especially against surcharges that would pay for increased levels of resources and service when it comes time to send in responders to save those homes. If I were a fire chief in a state that had subverted residential sprinklers, I would try to change my local building code to require that homes were either sprinklered or had to be built out of solid stick framing and Type X throughout. That makes it an easy choice ... for sprinklers. When my neighbor's choice affects my and my family's and emergency responders' safety, it's not a land rights issue. I appreciate the ethos of "A (wo)man's home is (her)his castle." I don't advocate that residential systems in single family dwellings should be subject to ITM or recurring inspections. As the late Bob Caputo said just last week in a discussion of this very subject, the police can't enter with probable cause so it's never going to come to pass that the fire official will have that right. But if a residential sprinkler system - in its barest essence - is installed properly, inspecting it shouldn't be an issue, so long as the owner observes a very small and simple set of guidelines that should be conveyed on every new home. And ultimately, it is the cheapest way to raise the fire safety standard in the community; I would rather make a direct payment on an asset that I own than be nickel and dimed by higher insurance premiums. How many people here feel compelled to pay for those homes in the Mississippi River Delta that get flooded every year? Personally, I'm tired of watching CNN and seeing a guy wearing a "Who Farted" hat telling the reporter, "Yep, it just floated away. But we're gonna rebuild!" -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] on behalf of Ron Greenman Sent: Mon 7/29/2013 9:43 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: Home Fire Sprinkler Guidance - New Jersey Ben didn't build the Ponderosa from nothing. he built it on land annexed from Mexico after the United States Army, an organization financed by the collective citizens of the United States, after defeating the Army of Mexico, at that time considered to be the country most likely to emerge as the major nation in North America. Ben was given his vast holdings by the people of the US because he promised to develop it, as he did, meeting his obligation to the people of the US. Then Ben got rich shipping his cattle to market on the Central Pacific Railroad, cum Southern Pacific, which was highly subsidized by the US government, ergo us. I notice that Ben got mail (even the Pony Express was Federally subsidized), Ben went to town, and relied on Sheriff Roy Coffee hen he needed the law, a servant of the people enforcing the law. Now Ben probably wouldn't have had insurance and didn't expect the public fire department to show up if he had a fire but today an other Ben who doesn't have sprinklers will rely on the public FD to arrive in public vehicles over public roads, hoof up to the public water system and rescue him, his family, save his house, and protect his neighbors. Then there will be lots of damage materials going to the public landfill. His risk will increase my insurance rates and the insurance rating of the city, a public entity will suffer. Indeed the government, us has every right to mandate safety. Remember that codes are not forced upon you to protect you, they're a collective agreement we force upon each other to protect ourselves ourselves. Ayn Rand is so full of bullshit I can't even kep my civility when speaking of her nonsense. I'm all for the cult of the individual. All the individuals need to find somewhere where civilized, social humans aren't and fend for themselves. That was Botany Bay an the first thing the anti-social individuals dropped there did was form a government and set up rules, that duly elcted members of the community enforced a officers of the rest. I might question these mandates based on a cost /benefit basis. The increasing requirements for sprinklers have reduced deaths, but maybe putting them in every house might be the saturation point where the law of diminishing returns kicks in. So the potential to reduce the 3000 random lives a year worth it? Certainly would be to you if it's your child saved but maybe not if it's mine, and vice versa. Ayn saves screw your kid. But then again the reduction of public infrastructure necessary to protect us from fire can be reduced, collectively saving us all money if we all mandate that we all must have sprinklers. What would Ayn say to that? Government interference with my right to put you at risk from my bad behavior and then expect the public to provide emergency services. Hmmm.... I better stop. On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 6:41 PM, Forest Wilson <[email protected]>wrote: > I have thought about this issue very much. > I was formerly supportive of codes mandating installation of fire > sprinklers in houses. > > However after reading Atlas Shrugged I have reconsidered my stance. > > At issue is Ben Cartwright, at home on the Ponderosa. Does the state have > the moral right to go to the Ponderosa and tell the Cartwrights they need > to install fire sprinklers in the ranch house? > > Now Ben is a knowledgeable man. He built the Ponderosa from nothing. If he > wants them I'm sure he would install them without being coerced. > > And what happens if Ben didn't install them? Will the Sheriff go out > there, and use force (with a gun) to make him do it? If he resists will he > shot? Will he be imprisoned? > > How would Thomas Jefferson reply if the state told him how to design his > estate? > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Jul 29, 2013, at 5:30 PM, Frank Herrick <[email protected]> wrote: > > > My heartfelt congratulations to everyone in New Jersey who made this > happen, you have saved lives ! > > > > That's a thousand times better than what's happed here in Kansas. Code > official have been cut off at the knees thanks to the combined efforts of > the HBA and the Realtor's Association. Local city and county cannot require > sprinklers in single family housing > > > > I guess that the citizens of New jersey are more important than people > in Kansas and deserve the protection of a residential fire sprinkler > system. As a fire service professional and a paramedic with over 25 years > of experience I can tell you exactly what will happen in a home without > fire sprinklers. > > > > Furthermore, I can tell you that the two most likely places these > residents will relocate to: The Burn Center or The Morgue. > > > > Here is the Kansas law that will be responsible for the deaths and > injuries to numerous Men, Women, Children and the elderly, and who knows > how many firefighters: > > > > Kansas Statute 12-16,219. Cities, counties; prohibition on fire > sprinkler requirements in certain residential dwellings. > > > > (a) As used in this section: > > > > (1) "Municipality" means any city or county. > > > > (2) "Residential structure" means any improvement to real property to be > used or occupied as a single-family dwelling or multi-family dwelling of > two attached living units or less or any manufactured home. > > > > (b) No municipality shall adopt or enforce any ordinance, order, code, > standard or rule requiring the installation of a multi-purpose residential > fire protection sprinkler system or any other fire sprinkler protection > system in any residential structure. Nothing in this section shall prohibit > any person from voluntarily installing a multi-purpose residential fire > protection sprinkler system or any other fire sprinkler protection system > in a residential structure. > > > > (c) No municipality shall require the installation of a multi-purpose > residential fire protection sprinkler system in any residential structure > as a condition for consideration or approval of any building permit or plat. > > > > History: L. 2010, ch. 116, § 25; L. 2011, ch. 43, § 1; Apr. 14. > > > > Very sorrowfully yours, > > > > Capt. Frank J. Herrick > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > [email protected] > > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > -- Ron Greenman Instructor Fire Protection Engineering Technology Bates Technical College 1101 So. Yakima Ave. Tacoma, WA 98405 [email protected] http://www.bates.ctc.edu/fireprotection/ 253.680.7346 253.576.9700 (cell) Member: ASEE, SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, AFSA, NFSA, AFAA, NIBS, WSAFM, WFC, WFSC They are happy men whose natures sort with their vocations. -Francis Bacon, essayist, philosopher, and statesman (1561-1626) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
