I appreciate the help and I will have a lengthy discussion with the FMO about this. As far as a great discussion with the A/E....um yeah. Usually the discussions end with me re-spacing my sprinkler heads due to aesthetics or the ever so fun of explaining hydraulics to the engineer over the phone for an hour (they usually don't get it). This then culminates to a meeting with everyone and their brother. They go for about an hour and a half (usually start late). I get told no one has ever had to deal with this in their 20 or so years of doing this. Some shouting is involved and I get assigned responsibility, accused of witchcraft and threatened to be burned at the stake. All on the sprinkler contractors dime.
Jeremy Frazier Designer Cavalier Fire Protection P:571-931-1004 F:571-931-1010 -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Mark A. Sornsin, P.E. Sent: Tuesday, September 03, 2013 2:15 PM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Fire Pump with storage tank Sounds like a great discussion to have been had by the A/E on the job, not the sprinkler contactor awarded the job after bidding (unless this is a design-build retrofit situation). Mark A. Sornsin, P.E. | Karges-Faulconbridge, Inc. | Fire Protection Engineer | Fargo, ND | direct: 701.552.9905 | mobile: 701.371.5759 | http://www.kfiengineers.com -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Ron Greenman Sent: Tuesday, September 03, 2013 11:54 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: Fire Pump with storage tank How is fire flow being handled? For a school I doubt if tankers would be OK with the FD. And if it isn't a well why would you need a tank? On Tue, Sep 3, 2013 at 9:26 AM, Jeremy Frazier <[email protected]>wrote: > This is for a 2 story school. It doesn't have standpipes or hose stations. > The tank is only feeding the fire pump and the sprinkler system. I'm > not 100% sure what is supplying the tank at the moment, but I believe > it is either a well or something of that nature. > > Jeremy Frazier > Designer > Cavalier Fire Protection > P:571-931-1004 > F:571-931-1010 > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of > [email protected] > Sent: Tuesday, September 03, 2013 11:03 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: RE: Fire Pump with storage tank > > Yes, hydrants fed from the pump/tank is one unanswered question in > this equation. > > We need details in order to provide guidance. > > Craig L. Prahl, CET > Fire Protection > CH2MHILL > Lockwood Greene > 1500 International Drive > Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 > Direct - 864.599.4102 > Fax - 864.599.8439 > CH2MHILL Extension 74102 > [email protected] > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of > Todd > - > Work > Sent: Tuesday, September 03, 2013 11:00 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: Fire Pump with storage tank > > Unless otherwise specified, a tank is sized based on the maximum > sprinkler demand, plus any hose streams fed from the pump (inside hose > stations, standpipes, fire hydrants, etc), times the duration. And > that is useable water. If no hose flow is taken off the pump, it does > not have to be included in pump sizing. I would not think fire flow > would matter unless hydrants are fed by the pump. > > Todd G Williams, PE > Fire Protection Design/Consulting > Stonington, CT > www.fpdc.com > > On Sep 3, 2013, at 10:51 AM, Steven Scandaliato > <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > Chris, I'm curious, is that in the March 2013 edition of the UFC? > > Where is that coming from? > > > > Steven Scandaliato, SET CFPS > > 520.971.2322 Cell > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [email protected] > > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of > > Cahill, Christopher > > Sent: Tuesday, September 03, 2013 8:47 AM > > To: [email protected] > > Subject: RE: Fire Pump with storage tank > > > > The 150% part of the question makes me wonder if this is military. > > If so since Feb. 2013 you do size for 150% of the pump (or demand x > > time whichever is higher which is always the 150% of the pump, > > seeing as how you can't go past 140% of a pump for design, well > > unless you want to put in a lot of small pumps.) > > > > Chris Cahill, PE* > > Senior Fire Protection Engineer > > Burns & McDonnell > > 8201 Norman Center Drive > > Bloomington, MN 55437 > > Phone: 952.656.3652 > > Fax: 952.229.2923 > > [email protected] > > www.burnsmcd.com > > > > Proud to be one of FORTUNE's 100 Best Companies to Work For > > *Registered > in: > > MN > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [email protected] > > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of > > [email protected] > > Sent: Tuesday, September 03, 2013 9:42 AM > > To: [email protected] > > Subject: RE: Fire Pump with storage tank > > > > Don't forget about Fire Flow as referenced in the IFC section 507. > > You'll need to call the local responding fire department and ask > > what method they have approved for determining fire flow. > > > > This is a value related to flow (gpm) and duration (hours) for > > manual fire fighting. It is very often overlooked by fire > > protection designers because it's not in NFPA 13. > > > > This value can have significant impact on your tank and pump selection. > > > > Craig L. Prahl, CET > > Fire Protection > > CH2MHILL > > Lockwood Greene > > 1500 International Drive > > Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 > > Direct - 864.599.4102 > > Fax - 864.599.8439 > > CH2MHILL Extension 74102 > > [email protected] > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [email protected] > > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of > > Jeremy Frazier > > Sent: Tuesday, September 03, 2013 10:19 AM > > To: [email protected] > > Subject: Fire Pump with storage tank > > > > When you size a tank, do you size it for 150% of the fire pump > > demand or just the sprinkler demand? Would you also need to include > > the hose stream if there is no inside hose stations? This is the > > first time I'm doing one of these, and I would hate to get this wrong. > > > > > > > > > > > > Jeremy Frazier > > Designer > > > > Cavalier Fire Protection > > > > P:571-931-1004 > > > > F:571-931-1010 > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > [email protected] > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprin > > kl er.org _______________________________________________ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > [email protected] > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprin > > kl er.org _______________________________________________ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > [email protected] > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprin > > kl > > er.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > [email protected] > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprin > > kl > > er.org > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkl > er.org _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkl > er.org > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. > For more information please visit http://www.symanteccloud.com > ______________________________________________________________________ > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkl > er.org > -- Ron Greenman Instructor Fire Protection Engineering Technology Bates Technical College 1101 So. Yakima Ave. Tacoma, WA 98405 [email protected] http://www.bates.ctc.edu/fireprotection/ 253.680.7346 253.576.9700 (cell) Member: ASEE, SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, AFSA, NFSA, AFAA, NIBS, WSAFM, WFC, WFSC They are happy men whose natures sort with their vocations. -Francis Bacon, essayist, philosopher, and statesman (1561-1626) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. 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