I believe the credits for the completed system is based on insurance
criteria as well as NFPA requirements and a conversation with the
Underwriters may be profitable for all.
Garth
retired fitter
-----Original Message-----
From: Jeremy Frazier
Sent: Tuesday, September 03, 2013 3:23 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Fire Pump with storage tank
I appreciate the help and I will have a lengthy discussion with the FMO
about this. As far as a great discussion with the A/E....um yeah. Usually
the discussions end with me re-spacing my sprinkler heads due to aesthetics
or the ever so fun of explaining hydraulics to the engineer over the phone
for an hour (they usually don't get it). This then culminates to a meeting
with everyone and their brother. They go for about an hour and a half
(usually start late). I get told no one has ever had to deal with this in
their 20 or so years of doing this. Some shouting is involved and I get
assigned responsibility, accused of witchcraft and threatened to be burned
at the stake. All on the sprinkler contractors dime.
Jeremy Frazier
Designer
Cavalier Fire Protection
P:571-931-1004
F:571-931-1010
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Mark A.
Sornsin, P.E.
Sent: Tuesday, September 03, 2013 2:15 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Fire Pump with storage tank
Sounds like a great discussion to have been had by the A/E on the job, not
the sprinkler contactor awarded the job after bidding (unless this is a
design-build retrofit situation).
Mark A. Sornsin, P.E. | Karges-Faulconbridge, Inc. | Fire Protection
Engineer | Fargo, ND | direct: 701.552.9905 | mobile: 701.371.5759 |
http://www.kfiengineers.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Ron
Greenman
Sent: Tuesday, September 03, 2013 11:54 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Fire Pump with storage tank
How is fire flow being handled? For a school I doubt if tankers would be OK
with the FD. And if it isn't a well why would you need a tank?
On Tue, Sep 3, 2013 at 9:26 AM, Jeremy Frazier
<[email protected]>wrote:
This is for a 2 story school. It doesn't have standpipes or hose
stations.
The tank is only feeding the fire pump and the sprinkler system. I'm
not 100% sure what is supplying the tank at the moment, but I believe
it is either a well or something of that nature.
Jeremy Frazier
Designer
Cavalier Fire Protection
P:571-931-1004
F:571-931-1010
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of
[email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, September 03, 2013 11:03 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Fire Pump with storage tank
Yes, hydrants fed from the pump/tank is one unanswered question in
this equation.
We need details in order to provide guidance.
Craig L. Prahl, CET
Fire Protection
CH2MHILL
Lockwood Greene
1500 International Drive
Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491
Direct - 864.599.4102
Fax - 864.599.8439
CH2MHILL Extension 74102
[email protected]
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of
Todd
-
Work
Sent: Tuesday, September 03, 2013 11:00 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Fire Pump with storage tank
Unless otherwise specified, a tank is sized based on the maximum
sprinkler demand, plus any hose streams fed from the pump (inside hose
stations, standpipes, fire hydrants, etc), times the duration. And
that is useable water. If no hose flow is taken off the pump, it does
not have to be included in pump sizing. I would not think fire flow
would matter unless hydrants are fed by the pump.
Todd G Williams, PE
Fire Protection Design/Consulting
Stonington, CT
www.fpdc.com
On Sep 3, 2013, at 10:51 AM, Steven Scandaliato
<[email protected]>
wrote:
> Chris, I'm curious, is that in the March 2013 edition of the UFC?
> Where is that coming from?
>
> Steven Scandaliato, SET CFPS
> 520.971.2322 Cell
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected]
> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of
> Cahill, Christopher
> Sent: Tuesday, September 03, 2013 8:47 AM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: RE: Fire Pump with storage tank
>
> The 150% part of the question makes me wonder if this is military.
> If so since Feb. 2013 you do size for 150% of the pump (or demand x
> time whichever is higher which is always the 150% of the pump,
> seeing as how you can't go past 140% of a pump for design, well
> unless you want to put in a lot of small pumps.)
>
> Chris Cahill, PE*
> Senior Fire Protection Engineer
> Burns & McDonnell
> 8201 Norman Center Drive
> Bloomington, MN 55437
> Phone: 952.656.3652
> Fax: 952.229.2923
> [email protected]
> www.burnsmcd.com
>
> Proud to be one of FORTUNE's 100 Best Companies to Work For
> *Registered
in:
> MN
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected]
> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of
> [email protected]
> Sent: Tuesday, September 03, 2013 9:42 AM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: RE: Fire Pump with storage tank
>
> Don't forget about Fire Flow as referenced in the IFC section 507.
> You'll need to call the local responding fire department and ask
> what method they have approved for determining fire flow.
>
> This is a value related to flow (gpm) and duration (hours) for
> manual fire fighting. It is very often overlooked by fire
> protection designers because it's not in NFPA 13.
>
> This value can have significant impact on your tank and pump selection.
>
> Craig L. Prahl, CET
> Fire Protection
> CH2MHILL
> Lockwood Greene
> 1500 International Drive
> Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491
> Direct - 864.599.4102
> Fax - 864.599.8439
> CH2MHILL Extension 74102
> [email protected]
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected]
> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of
> Jeremy Frazier
> Sent: Tuesday, September 03, 2013 10:19 AM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Fire Pump with storage tank
>
> When you size a tank, do you size it for 150% of the fire pump
> demand or just the sprinkler demand? Would you also need to include
> the hose stream if there is no inside hose stations? This is the
> first time I'm doing one of these, and I would hate to get this wrong.
>
>
>
>
>
> Jeremy Frazier
> Designer
>
> Cavalier Fire Protection
>
> P:571-931-1004
>
> F:571-931-1010
>
>
>
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--
Ron Greenman
Instructor
Fire Protection Engineering Technology
Bates Technical College
1101 So. Yakima Ave.
Tacoma, WA 98405
[email protected]
http://www.bates.ctc.edu/fireprotection/
253.680.7346
253.576.9700 (cell)
Member:
ASEE, SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, AFSA, NFSA, AFAA, NIBS, WSAFM, WFC, WFSC
They are happy men whose natures sort with their vocations. -Francis Bacon,
essayist, philosopher, and statesman (1561-1626)
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