Damien, You said,
"Thanks Forest. We ended up presenting as you mentioned FM Datasheets as well as GAPs Guidelines and indicating the types of criteria that we would need to apply either one. I think they understood why it was impractical to state 'provide sprinkler system in accordance with NFPA 30', when we have no knowledge of the classification of liquids/reactions that are being performed; and that it was beyond our role as a contractor. We have left it at their doorstep for them to review and come back with a specification, so we'll see what happens next." This is the correct approach. It is the design Engineer of Record's responsibility to determine the protection requirements. You cannot just pick up NFPA 30 and go the Chapter 17 and find all of the requirements for protection of flammable & combustible liquids processes. You have to use all of the applicable requirements in the documents, and you need to use professionals who are familiar with the processes and the hazards associated with those processes. Take a look at all the requirements in general provisions in Chapter 6, not just 6.7 which covers fire protection and fire suppression. If one don't understand the hazard (section 6.4) it is less likely that the protection provided, whatever is decided, will be adequate. If you find information in the FM Data Sheets that is specific to what you are trying to protect, then it is appropriate for the design professionals to consider that as the means of protection. If it doesn't quite fit, then it requires that the people designing the system evaluate if it is appropriate for the hazard and determine whether or not to specify it as appropriate. One of the reasons that the protection criteria for process protection is not as specific as the protection criteria for storage of flammable & combustible liquids is the wide variation of how things are used in process operations, and the breadth of coverage from household use to large industrial processing facilities. The protection criteria for storage is based on large scale testing. With few exceptions it is based on tests that have been proven to work on that specific configuration of container(s), materials,and storage configuration. If it hasn't been tested, you won't find criteria in the standard. Even less testing has been done with process operations, which is why the hazard analysis is important and to be performed by experienced professionals. Most process protection has been developed by the industries and their insurance companies over time in an effort to minimize loss. As always, the opinions expressed are my own and are not to be taken as an interpretation, informal or otherwise, of the NFPA or any of my affiliations. Dwight Havens Pre-Planning Engineer, Round Lake Fire Department, Round Lake, NY Chairman, NFPA 30 FLC-OPS On Friday, October 25, 2013 5:44 AM, Damien Shannon <[email protected]> wrote: Thanks Forest. We ended up presenting as you mentioned FM Datasheets as well as GAPs Guidelines and indicating the types of criteria that we would need to apply either one. I think they understood why it was impractical to state 'provide sprinkler system in accordance with NFPA 30', when we have no knowledge of the classification of liquids/reactions that are being performed; and that it was beyond our role as a contractor. We have left it at their doorstep for them to review and come back with a specification, so we'll see what happens next. Thanks again. Damien Shannon Provincial Sprinkler Company Ltd. Unit 4, Cork Airport Industrial Estate Kinsale Road, Cork, Ireland. Office: (021) 496 5058 Mobile: (086) 788 8222 Fax: (021) 431 7425 -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Forest Wilson Fire Sprinkler Comtractor Sent: 24 October 2013 02:13 To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Missing pages in NFPA 30 Ask if you can use FM standards? Sent from my Galaxy S®III -------- Original message -------- From: Damien Shannon <[email protected]> Date: 10/23/2013 2:54 PM (GMT-05:00) To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Missing pages in NFPA 30 Hi Galen. Thank you for the response. The project in question is for a pharmaceutical manufacturing facility. The exact processing and liquids we don't know at the moment. We are meeting with the project Fire Safety Consultants tomorrow. However they don't seem to know too much about the sprinkler aspect (as we were told 'Sprinkler according NFPA 30'). They have information on the liquids boiling points/flash... so they are knowledgeable in other aspects, so it is likely that they would be able to provide criteria, if we were able to say we need to know x,y,z in order to determine head spacing, fire area requirements, calc requirements. The previous 'similar' projects that we have done have been per FM 7-32/7-14 which would have that type of criteria that we could point to. However NFPA is referenced for this project. Thanks again for any assistance. Damien Shannon Provincial Sprinkler Company Ltd. Unit 4, Cork Airport Industrial Estate Kinsale Road, Cork, Ireland. -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Taylor, Galen Sent: 23 October 2013 19:27 To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Missing pages in NFPA 30 Help us to help you - Define "processing" for us. For instance: Is it an oil refinery or a paint manufacturer. Other terms for processing could be "use, mixing & dispensing". Galen Taylor County of Los Angeles Fire Department Fire Prevention Engineering 323-890-4339 [email protected] -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Damien Shannon Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2013 6:50 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Missing pages in NFPA 30 So I'm not really missing pages, however some of the information I thought would be contained in chapter 17 doesn't seem to be in there. There seems to be extensive information related spacing, fire rating requirement and hydraulic calculation requirements for the various storage of liquids within NFPA 30, however there doesn't seem to be such criteria for Processing Facilities. Can anyone advise where one goes for criteria for an internal processing facility utilizing flammable and combustible liquids (both miscible and immiscible) in regards to: Max allowable spacing of sprinklers? Do you have to flow all sprinklers within a fire area (i.e. including sprinklers under platforms, under obstructions, over the liquid pumps)? What is the required calculation area and density? I see 3.3.2.2 defines a Fire Area as 'An area of a building separated from the remainder of the building by construction having a fire resistance of at least one hour and having all communicating opening properly protected by an assembly having a fire resistance rating of at least one hour. However, if you have a large area and trench drains are provided to prevent spill fires, what is the maximum area to calculate? First NFPA job in 3 years and it would be one that I'm familiar not with. Any insight would be greatly appreciated. Regards. Damien Shannon Provincial Sprinkler Company Ltd. Unit 4, Cork Airport Industrial Estate Kinsale Road, Cork, Ireland. _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
