Same thing happened in Denver when all the jaws hit the ground.
On Fri, Feb 21, 2014 at 1:33 PM, Steve Leyton <[email protected]>wrote: > That's what you think. Go here: > http://aki.bc.edu/cgi-bin/NESN/recent_events.pl > > Most recent temblors in New England were last week. Not big ones, but > you have them all the time. This feeds into what I said about changing > times: those maps in the annexes of older NFPA 13 editions are obsolete. > Throw them away. > > There was also a pretty severe jolt on Jan 18 that was thought to be a > seismic event but turned out to be about 1.3 million people all sitting > down at the same time when the clock ran out on the Pats in the AFC > Championship game. > > Steve > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of > Todd - Work > Sent: Friday, February 21, 2014 1:21 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: seismic bracing calcs > > I think you also need to take into account regional differences. Some > areas, like Leytonland, have a lot of earthquakes and potential for > serious ones in the future. They need to be on top of that. The last > major earthquake in New England was in 1755 off the coast of MA. > Earthquake potential is not taken as seriously out here. You go to > places like TX and it is virtually non-existant. There isn't the > consistent demand on a national level. > > The only time in the last 10 years I have had a direct involvement with > a structural engineer in when one guy used all his mechanical dead loads > to support the solar panels and forgot about the 3 - 8" mains directly > underneath going to the ESFR systems (which somehow was my fault). The > mechanical engineer looks to see if we meet their spec, the architect > wants to make sure it looks pretty, the insurance company reviews it for > their requirements and the AHJ does his check list. That is the reality > of the review process. Structural guys are nowhere to be found. If they > want a higher level of analysis, it is going to have to come from the > design team. The sprinkler community is not going to start it. > > Todd G Williams, PE > Fire Protection Design/Consulting > Stonington, CT > www.fpdc.com > 860-535-2080 (ofc) > > > On Feb 21, 2014, at 1:18 PM, <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > I think the reason we are so far behind other trades is that for years > and years fire sprinklers were considered a necessary evil and not an > integral part of the building system. And in years past building > structures weren't engineered to save every ounce of steel so supporting > the added weight of a sprinkler system was no big deal. > > Ron F > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [email protected] > > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of > > Steve Leyton > > Sent: Friday, February 21, 2014 10:27 AM > > To: [email protected] > > Subject: RE: seismic bracing calcs > > > > This goes to perpetuate the notion that we're different or special and > > that's good and okay. I respectfully disagree - it's not. > > > > Every other discipline is required to structurally engineer their > supports, coordinate loads and attachments closely with the structural > engineer, show calculations for all of that and seismic support where > required. Why are we different - because we haven't been doing that the > last 30 years while all the other building systems have moved forward to > what are now the widely considered good practices for attaching building > systems to structure? Sorry, but if that's true then we're a bunch of > retards who are allergic to change and that's a decidedly bad thing. > > > > I cannot tell you how many seismic braces I've seen attached to the > bottom of composite I-joists. Not the bottom of the web, the flat > bottom of the bottom chord. Or to the web of an 8" 20-gauge Z-purlin. > > Or to an unreinforced metal deck. Is that okay because, "We've > always > > done it like that?" I've seen 4" main trapezed between two 16" > > I-joists with a 2x4 - everyone cool with that? Never mind the 2x4, > we > > know that's not cool but can those joists handle it? Why do we think > that the manufacturers of engineered wood structural products all now > > publish sprinkler hanger and bracing handbooks? BECAUSE THESE ARE > > ENGINEERED SOLUTIONS, that's why. So if you don't have a > > pre-engineered solution you have to design one, i.e. coordinate your > attachment points, calculate your seismic braces, verify with structural > > that the building can handle the loads you're applying. We are > > currently working on a storage facility with poor water pressure and > the structural engineer redesigned the roof structure to support the > several dozen feet of 8" we've been forced to use to avoid a pump. No > big deal, just had to show him our design. > > > > To not take it to this degree of detail, i.e. to coordinate your work > > with the affected work of other disciplines (structural) in the year > > 2014 is not an adequate degree of diligence, IMHO > > > > <CRACK!!> Oops, my soapbox just broke. > > > > Steve Leyton > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [email protected] > > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of > > John Denhardt > > Sent: Friday, February 21, 2014 9:12 AM > > To: '[email protected]' > > Subject: RE: seismic bracing calcs > > > > Agree 100%! > > > > John August Denhardt, P.E., FSFPE > > Strickland Fire Protection Incorporated > > 5113 Berwyn Road > > College Park, Maryland 20740 > > Office Telephone Number: 301-474-1136 Mobile Telephone Number: > > 301-343-1457 FIRE SPRINKLERS SAVE LIVES - Can you live without them? > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [email protected] > > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of > > Steven Scandaliato > > Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2014 5:13 PM > > To: [email protected] > > Subject: Re: seismic bracing calcs > > > > Well that's were we are going to disagree...I haven't put tick marks > on a dwg or required them on a dwg since I can't remember. if a licensed > contractor who employs certified (licensed in some states) fitters who > cannot read a tables that tells him where to put a hanger based a pipe > size then we got way bigger problems than seismic features... > > > > Sent from my BlackBerry 10 smartphone. > > From: [email protected] > > Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2014 4:04 PM > > To: [email protected] > > Reply To: [email protected] > > Subject: RE: seismic bracing calcs > > > > > > It's a miracle if they remember to show hangers on drawings and > they're actually legible. > > > > > > > > > > Craig L. Prahl, CET > > Fire Protection Group Lead > > CH2MHILL > > Lockwood Greene > > 1500 International Drive > > Spartanburg, SC 29303 > > Direct - 864.599.4102 > > Fax - 864.599.8439 > > CH2MHILL Extension 74102 > > [email protected] > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [email protected] > > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of > rongreenman . > > Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2014 4:33 PM > > To: [email protected] > > Subject: Re: seismic bracing calcs > > > > You ought to be demanding it in that detail, Craig. > > > > > >> On Thu, Feb 20, 2014 at 11:36 AM, <[email protected]> wrote: > >> > >> Steven, > >> > >> I have never received a contractor shop drawing that covered things > >> to > > > >> the detail you describe. It's often a wonder to get the basic > >> information on the drawings like pipe elevations and hangers let > >> alone > > > >> anything to the depth you describe. > >> > >> I don't disagree with your statement just saying, I've never seen it > >> happen. > >> > >> Craig L. Prahl, CET > >> Fire Protection Group Lead > >> CH2MHILL > >> Lockwood Greene > >> 1500 International Drive > >> Spartanburg, SC 29303 > >> Direct - 864.599.4102 > >> Fax - 864.599.8439 > >> CH2MHILL Extension 74102 > >> [email protected] > >> > >> > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: [email protected] [mailto: > >> [email protected]] On Behalf Of Steven > >> Scandaliato > >> Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2014 11:00 AM > >> To: [email protected] > >> Subject: RE: seismic bracing calcs > >> > >> Wait...hold on...just to make sure, and Craig I am sure you probably > >> know this...BUT we have a lot more than just calcs for braces that > >> have to be addressed. We have 4 other design features that have to > >> be > > addressed. > >> Cplgs, clearance, separation and restraint. This is a weakest link > >> kinda thing...so just because we have braced a system does not mean > >> it > > > >> is designed for seismic...we have to put flex and rigid cplgs where > >> they go, we have to show that we have accounted for clearance where > >> it > > > >> applies, we have to acknowledge that there is no separation required > >> if applicable and we have to show and space b'line restraint. > >> Seismic > > > >> design demands its own sheets and symbols and sheet installation > >> notes > > > >> etc. Do not try and pile all of this onto an already unreadable > >> piping plan. EOR or Shop design, all of these categories must be > >> addressed in the documents....and by the way, putting 4-ways and > >> every > > > >> change of direction is not a design feature required or intended by > >> 9.3. I see a lot of contractors do that thinking they are in > >> compliance. This may be a great cost saver or standardized thing you > > >> want to do with your fitters but it does not automatically put you in > > compliance with 9.3....just sayin. > >> > >> One other note while I am on this, we all need to pay better > >> attention > > > >> to restraint. I still have many AHJs and contractors alike that > >> haven't heard of it. If seismic is required then restraint is > >> required. This isn't optional. And pay attention to the spacing > >> requirements for it. Many, including myself, have fallen into the > >> "end of line" mentality and think that is the only place we have to > >> have it...but if you have long branchlines, you definitely will have > > more than "end of line" locations. > >> > >> With Sicilian Love, > >> > >> Steven Scandaliato, SET CFPS > >> 520.971.2322 Cell > >> Skype: steven.scandaliato > >> > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: [email protected] > >> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of > >> rongreenman . > >> Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2014 9:41 AM > >> To: [email protected] > >> Subject: Re: seismic bracing calcs > >> > >> Cliff's opinion is right. > >> > >> > >> On Thu, Feb 20, 2014 at 6:49 AM, Cliff Whitfield > >> <[email protected]>wrote: > >> > >>> Craig, > >>> > >>> If you don't calc it, how do you know it works? That would be like > >>> sending in drawings with 'hydraulically calculated pipe sizes' with > >>> no hydraulic calcs to prove the sizes are correct. Just not > > happening. > >>> > >>> A lot of 'East Coast' contractors/designers (I fit in that category > >>> even though I now live in Colorado) just show braces on their > >>> drawings but it's not even close to being the correct way to do it. > >>> They need to take the time to learn from the AFSA classes that Ken > >>> Wagonner and others do so that they can do it right. I've had to > >>> take it 3 times because I don't use it very often and it easy to > >>> forget without the repetition but it's just something you have to do > > > >>> if you are doing your > >> job correctly. > >>> > >>> Simply my opinion (but I think it's right!) > >>> > >>> Cliff Whitfield, SET > >>> President > >>> Fire Design, Inc. > >>> Ph: 719-488-3479 > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> [email protected] > >>> www.fire-design.com > >>> > >>> -----Original Message----- > >>> From: [email protected] > >>> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of > > > >>> [email protected] > >>> Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2014 7:27 AM > >>> To: [email protected] > >>> Subject: seismic bracing calcs > >>> > >>> Seismic design category C, contractor submittal package, > >>> > >>> Do you provide a calc sheet for EQ bracing or just locate per NFPA > >>> 13 and send typical catalog data sheets? > >>> > >>> FM Global project, BTW. > >>> > >>> Craig L. Prahl, CET > >>> Fire Protection Group Lead > >>> CH2MHILL > >>> Lockwood Greene > >>> 1500 International Drive > >>> Spartanburg, SC 29303 > >>> Direct - 864.599.4102 > >>> Fax - 864.599.8439 > >>> CH2MHILL Extension 74102 > >>> [email protected] > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> Sprinklerforum mailing list > >>> [email protected] > >>> > >>> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprin > >>> kl > >>> er.org > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> Sprinklerforum mailing list > >>> [email protected] > >>> > >>> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprin > >>> kl > >>> er.org > >> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> Ron Greenman > >> Instructor > >> Fire Protection Engineering Technology Bates Technical College > >> 1101 So. Yakima Ave. > >> Tacoma, WA 98405 > >> > >> [email protected] > >> > >> http://www.bates.ctc.edu/fireprotection/ > >> > >> 253.680.7346 > >> 253.576.9700 (cell) > >> > >> Member: > >> ASEE, SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, AFSA, NFSA, AFAA, NIBS, WSAFM, WFC, WFSC > >> > >> They are happy men whose natures sort with their vocations. -Francis > >> Bacon, essayist, philosopher, and statesman (1561-1626) > >> > >> A problem well stated is a problem half solved. -Charles F. > >> Kettering, > > > >> inventor and engineer (1876-1958) > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Sprinklerforum mailing list > >> [email protected] > >> > >> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprink > >> l > >> er.org > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Sprinklerforum mailing list > >> [email protected] > >> > >> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprink > >> l er.org _______________________________________________ > >> Sprinklerforum mailing list > >> [email protected] > >> > >> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprink > >> l > >> er.org > > > > > > > > -- > > Ron Greenman > > Instructor > > Fire Protection Engineering Technology Bates Technical College > > 1101 So. Yakima Ave. > > Tacoma, WA 98405 > > > > [email protected] > > > > http://www.bates.ctc.edu/fireprotection/ > > > > 253.680.7346 > > 253.576.9700 (cell) > > > > Member: > > ASEE, SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, AFSA, NFSA, AFAA, NIBS, WSAFM, WFC, WFSC > > > > They are happy men whose natures sort with their vocations. -Francis > > Bacon, essayist, philosopher, and statesman (1561-1626) > > > > A problem well stated is a problem half solved. -Charles F. Kettering, > > > inventor and engineer (1876-1958) > > _______________________________________________ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > [email protected] > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkl > > er > > .org > > _______________________________________________ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > [email protected] > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkl > > er > > .org > > _______________________________________________ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > [email protected] > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkl > > er > > .org > > _______________________________________________ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > [email protected] > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkl > > er > > .org > > _______________________________________________ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > [email protected] > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkl > > er.org > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > [email protected] > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkl > > er.org > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler > .org > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > -- Ron Greenman Instructor Fire Protection Engineering Technology Bates Technical College 1101 So. Yakima Ave. Tacoma, WA 98405 [email protected] http://www.bates.ctc.edu/fireprotection/ 253.680.7346 253.576.9700 (cell) Member: ASEE, SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, AFSA, NFSA, AFAA, NIBS, WSAFM, WFC, WFSC They are happy men whose natures sort with their vocations. -Francis Bacon, essayist, philosopher, and statesman (1561-1626) A problem well stated is a problem half solved. -Charles F. Kettering, inventor and engineer (1876-1958) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
