On design build jobs we have started giving brace points, attachment method and weights with the pipe locations to the structural steel supplier to incorporate into their design. More reason to bring the lowly sprinkler guy into the project early instead of waiting till the end. Ron F
-----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of rongreenman . Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2014 3:30 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: seismic bracing calcs I think the standard of care is that the sprinkler drawings show the attachment points and prove the adequacy of the bracing components, including that the fasteners are of the proper type for the points of attachment, to meet 13. As to whether the building is adequate to cover the loading is the architect's problem. I know I've had steel building fabricators add members just 'cause I knew there was nothing substantial to hang a main from, but pointing that out was just a courtesy. You never hear of the glazier needing to provide calcs proving the structure can hold up the glass, but perhaps he may need to prove his attachment method will not fail in a seismic event. On Thu, Feb 20, 2014 at 2:17 PM, <[email protected]> wrote: > Thing is, we have AHJ's that have little things like that as an item > on their checklist, so it has to be shown. If they are not there, > they get kicked back and we do the dance again. > > That's not even the biggest issue, legibility is one of the biggest > flaws in shop drawings but we digress. > > Craig L. Prahl, CET > Fire Protection Group Lead > CH2MHILL > Lockwood Greene > 1500 International Drive > Spartanburg, SC 29303 > Direct - 864.599.4102 > Fax - 864.599.8439 > CH2MHILL Extension 74102 > [email protected] > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] [mailto: > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Steven > Scandaliato > Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2014 5:13 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: seismic bracing calcs > > Well that's were we are going to disagree...I haven't put tick marks > on a dwg or required them on a dwg since I can't remember. if a > licensed contractor who employs certified (licensed in some states) > fitters who cannot read a tables that tells him where to put a hanger > based a pipe size then we got way bigger problems than seismic features... > > Sent from my BlackBerry 10 smartphone. > From: [email protected] > Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2014 4:04 PM > To: [email protected] > Reply To: [email protected] > Subject: RE: seismic bracing calcs > > > It's a miracle if they remember to show hangers on drawings and > they're actually legible. > > > > > Craig L. Prahl, CET > Fire Protection Group Lead > CH2MHILL > Lockwood Greene > 1500 International Drive > Spartanburg, SC 29303 > Direct - 864.599.4102 > Fax - 864.599.8439 > CH2MHILL Extension 74102 > [email protected] > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] [mailto: > [email protected]] On Behalf Of rongreenman . > Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2014 4:33 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: seismic bracing calcs > > You ought to be demanding it in that detail, Craig. > > > On Thu, Feb 20, 2014 at 11:36 AM, <[email protected]> wrote: > > > Steven, > > > > I have never received a contractor shop drawing that covered things > > to the detail you describe. It's often a wonder to get the basic > > information on the drawings like pipe elevations and hangers let > > alone anything to the depth you describe. > > > > I don't disagree with your statement just saying, I've never seen it > > happen. > > > > Craig L. Prahl, CET > > Fire Protection Group Lead > > CH2MHILL > > Lockwood Greene > > 1500 International Drive > > Spartanburg, SC 29303 > > Direct - 864.599.4102 > > Fax - 864.599.8439 > > CH2MHILL Extension 74102 > > [email protected] > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [email protected] [mailto: > > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Steven > > Scandaliato > > Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2014 11:00 AM > > To: [email protected] > > Subject: RE: seismic bracing calcs > > > > Wait...hold on...just to make sure, and Craig I am sure you probably > > know this...BUT we have a lot more than just calcs for braces that > > have to be addressed. We have 4 other design features that have to > > be > addressed. > > Cplgs, clearance, separation and restraint. This is a weakest link > > kinda thing...so just because we have braced a system does not mean > > it is designed for seismic...we have to put flex and rigid cplgs > > where they go, we have to show that we have accounted for clearance > > where it applies, we have to acknowledge that there is no separation > > required if applicable and we have to show and space b'line > > restraint. Seismic design demands its own sheets and symbols and > > sheet installation notes etc. Do not try and pile all of this onto > > an already unreadable piping plan. EOR or Shop design, all of these > > categories must be addressed in the documents....and by the way, > > putting 4-ways and every change of direction is not a design feature > > required or intended by 9.3. I see a lot of contractors do that > > thinking they are in compliance. This may be a great cost saver or > > standardized thing you want to do with your fitters but it does not > > automatically put you in > compliance with 9.3....just sayin. > > > > One other note while I am on this, we all need to pay better > > attention to restraint. I still have many AHJs and contractors > > alike that haven't heard of it. If seismic is required then > > restraint is required. This isn't optional. And pay attention to > > the spacing requirements for it. Many, including myself, have > > fallen into the "end of line" mentality and think that is the only > > place we have to have it...but if you have long branchlines, you > > definitely will have > more than "end of line" locations. > > > > With Sicilian Love, > > > > Steven Scandaliato, SET CFPS > > 520.971.2322 Cell > > Skype: steven.scandaliato > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [email protected] > > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of > > rongreenman . > > Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2014 9:41 AM > > To: [email protected] > > Subject: Re: seismic bracing calcs > > > > Cliff's opinion is right. > > > > > > On Thu, Feb 20, 2014 at 6:49 AM, Cliff Whitfield > > <[email protected]>wrote: > > > > > Craig, > > > > > > If you don't calc it, how do you know it works? That would be > > > like sending in drawings with 'hydraulically calculated pipe > > > sizes' with no hydraulic calcs to prove the sizes are correct. Just not > > > happening. > > > > > > A lot of 'East Coast' contractors/designers (I fit in that > > > category even though I now live in Colorado) just show braces on > > > their drawings but it's not even close to being the correct way to do it. > > > They need to take the time to learn from the AFSA classes that Ken > > > Wagonner and others do so that they can do it right. I've had to > > > take it 3 times because I don't use it very often and it easy to > > > forget without the repetition but it's just something you have to > > > do if you are doing your > > job correctly. > > > > > > Simply my opinion (but I think it's right!) > > > > > > Cliff Whitfield, SET > > > President > > > Fire Design, Inc. > > > Ph: 719-488-3479 > > > > > > > > > > > > [email protected] > > > www.fire-design.com > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: [email protected] > > > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf > > > Of [email protected] > > > Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2014 7:27 AM > > > To: [email protected] > > > Subject: seismic bracing calcs > > > > > > Seismic design category C, contractor submittal package, > > > > > > Do you provide a calc sheet for EQ bracing or just locate per NFPA > > > 13 and send typical catalog data sheets? > > > > > > FM Global project, BTW. > > > > > > Craig L. Prahl, CET > > > Fire Protection Group Lead > > > CH2MHILL > > > Lockwood Greene > > > 1500 International Drive > > > Spartanburg, SC 29303 > > > Direct - 864.599.4102 > > > Fax - 864.599.8439 > > > CH2MHILL Extension 74102 > > > [email protected] > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > > [email protected] > > > > > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firespr > > > in > > > kl > > > er.org > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > > [email protected] > > > > > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firespr > > > in > > > kl > > > er.org > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Ron Greenman > > Instructor > > Fire Protection Engineering Technology Bates Technical College > > 1101 So. Yakima Ave. > > Tacoma, WA 98405 > > > > [email protected] > > > > http://www.bates.ctc.edu/fireprotection/ > > > > 253.680.7346 > > 253.576.9700 (cell) > > > > Member: > > ASEE, SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, AFSA, NFSA, AFAA, NIBS, WSAFM, WFC, WFSC > > > > They are happy men whose natures sort with their vocations. -Francis > > Bacon, essayist, philosopher, and statesman (1561-1626) > > > > A problem well stated is a problem half solved. -Charles F. > > Kettering, inventor and engineer (1876-1958) > > _______________________________________________ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > [email protected] > > > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprin > > kl > > er.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > [email protected] > > > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprin > > kl er.org _______________________________________________ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > [email protected] > > > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprin > > kl > > er.org > > > > > > -- > Ron Greenman > Instructor > Fire Protection Engineering Technology Bates Technical College > 1101 So. Yakima Ave. > Tacoma, WA 98405 > > [email protected] > > http://www.bates.ctc.edu/fireprotection/ > > 253.680.7346 > 253.576.9700 (cell) > > Member: > ASEE, SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, AFSA, NFSA, AFAA, NIBS, WSAFM, WFC, WFSC > > They are happy men whose natures sort with their vocations. -Francis > Bacon, essayist, philosopher, and statesman (1561-1626) > > A problem well stated is a problem half solved. -Charles F. Kettering, > inventor and engineer (1876-1958) > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkl > er.org _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkl > er.org _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkl > er.org _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkl > er.org > -- Ron Greenman Instructor Fire Protection Engineering Technology Bates Technical College 1101 So. Yakima Ave. Tacoma, WA 98405 [email protected] http://www.bates.ctc.edu/fireprotection/ 253.680.7346 253.576.9700 (cell) Member: ASEE, SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, AFSA, NFSA, AFAA, NIBS, WSAFM, WFC, WFSC They are happy men whose natures sort with their vocations. -Francis Bacon, essayist, philosopher, and statesman (1561-1626) A problem well stated is a problem half solved. -Charles F. Kettering, inventor and engineer (1876-1958) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
