2013 NFPA-13 8.15.1 Concealed Spaces. 8.15.1.1 Concealed Spaces Requiring Sprinkler Protection. Concealed spaces of exposed combustible construction shall be protected by sprinklers except in concealed spaces where sprinklers are not required to be installed by 8.15.1.2.1 through 8.15.1.2.18 and 8.15.6.
8.15.1.2.7 Concealed spaces filled with noncombustible insulation shall not require sprinkler protection. PS, heres Rolands, 2" air gap.........(change for the 2013 Edition) 8.15.1.2.7.1 A maximum 2 in. (50 mm) air gap at the top of the space shall be permitted. John Drucker, CET Fire Protection Subcode Official Fire / Building / Electrical Inspector New Jersey -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Charles Thurston Sent: Monday, March 24, 2014 9:36 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: truss filled with insulation Hello Speaking of concealed spaces. I have a project where the water pressure is marginal. BB heads will cover the span and there is enough pressure for them to work properly. The problem is there are 2 areas where the building gets about 4 feet wider on each side. BB will not cover, Need coin for the eves in these areas. IF they wall those areas off with sheetrock on the outside and fill them with insulation. Is that now a concealed space that does not have to be sprinkled? Monday, March 24, 2014, 8:11:58 PM, you wrote: > Very interesting. Not the detection method I would have thought of but effective! > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of > [email protected] > Sent: Monday, March 24, 2014 5:53 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: truss filled with insulation > More to my experience.....does the filling of combustible concealed space limit fire spread ?, Yes. > The building in question was a four (4) story pedestal 13R. A couple > years back an electrical fire occurred in an improperly spliced > feeder. The fire was contained to a an area of appx 2 cubic feet with > minor fire damage. The interesting part was how it was detected, by > the failure of cpvc pipe that had eventually melted from the arcing > heat resulting in waterflow. So yes properly filled concealed spaces > do limit fire spread. > John Drucker. > John Drucker > -----Original Message----- > From: Rod DiBona <[email protected]> > Sender: [email protected] > Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2014 23:15:23 > To: > [email protected]<[email protected] > ler.org> > Reply-To: [email protected] > Subject: RE: truss filled with insulation > John, > Thank you for the input. Would love to see the pictures offline if you > get a chance. [email protected] > Ron - In this case we are proposing a different building type with > separation walls and a 13R system. Not only will it save the owner > money but we are an investor on the project. The savings side of the > cost benefit analysis is much greater for the 13R if the truss space > was to be sprinklered. Clear benefits to the full 13 but wanting to > know the true difference. Per John's email below looks like this can > be done but isn't easy. Just didn't seem right to me. > Thank you both as always. > Rod at Rapid > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of rongreenman . > Sent: Monday, March 24, 2014 5:00 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: truss filled with insulation > And how is this your problem Rod? If you must write a letter saying in > your expert opinion this won't work and sprinklers should be added. > Give a contingency number for an attic dry if you're in the bidding > phase. Unless you're an insulation contractor bidding that, as well as > the sprinkler guy, and bidding that, it's not your problem. Let the > architect, the GC, and the insulator sort it all out. I believe the > "fill the void space with non-combustible insulation" concept was for > smaller spaces like under platforms, small concealed spaces, etc., not > whole building, peaked attic spaces. Of course it doesn't restrict the > size, so I'm probably wrong. I'll let the Hugginses and Druckerses > weigh in on intent. > Smeagal Greenman > On Mon, Mar 24, 2014 at 2:24 PM, John Drucker - Home < [email protected]> wrote: >> Rod, >> I experienced this exact situation. In order to blow it in the >> drywall has to be in place on the underside with installation holes >> bored in the decking above. The holes (typically 2") have to be >> properly placed and spaced and are left open after installation for >> inspection where a stick is used to determine if there are any voids. >> Where a void exists the stick will cause the insulation level to drop >> requiring it to be topped off. It's a ton of work to avoid putting >> sprinklers in a qualified concealed space. >> PS, If they ever ever open the ceiling, oh boy, like an hour glass it >> pours out requiring reinstallation of semi rigid insulation such as >> roxul or thermafiber. >> I have pics if you want to see, off list. >> John Drucker, CET >> Assistant Construction Official >> Fire Protection Subcode Official >> Building/Fire/Electrical Inspector >> Borough of Red Bank >> Red Bank, New Jersey >> Email: [email protected] >> Cell/Text: 732-904-6823 >> -----Original Message----- >> From: [email protected] >> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of >> Rod DiBona >> Sent: Monday, March 24, 2014 4:59 PM >> To: [email protected] >> Subject: truss filled with insulation >> I have an apartment building where the architect took the area >> increases for a full 13 system. They are utilizing a 16"open web >> truss in between the floors. The mechanical is running hvac in the truss. >> The sections show the space filled with insulation with an >> accompanying note that states that it will be. My question is how is >> this "completely filled with non - combustible insulation?" They are >> planning on blowing in the insulation around all the duct etc that is >> in the space but it just seems really hard to believe that it will >> indeed be completely filled. I remember a while back Roland tried to >> get a 2" gap on the top and I think that was a battle. I am picturing >> the duct blocking insulation from getting in plenty of spots. >> Maybe not? Any thougts? >> Rod at Rapid >> _______________________________________________ >> Sprinklerforum mailing list >> [email protected] >> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprink >> l >> er.org >> _______________________________________________ >> Sprinklerforum mailing list >> [email protected] >> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprink >> l >> er.org > -- > Ron Greenman > Instructor > Fire Protection Engineering Technology Bates Technical College > 1101 So. Yakima Ave. > Tacoma, WA 98405 > [email protected] > http://www.bates.ctc.edu/fireprotection/ > 253.680.7346 > 253.576.9700 (cell) > Member: > ASEE, SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, AFSA, NFSA, AFAA, NIBS, WSAFM, WFC, WFSC > They are happy men whose natures sort with their vocations. > -Francis Bacon, essayist, philosopher, and statesman (1561-1626) > A problem well stated is a problem half solved. -Charles F. > Kettering, inventor and engineer (1876-1958) > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkl > er.org > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkl > er.org > CONFIDENTIAL AND PROPRIETARY: > This email message is intended only for the use of the individual or > entity to which it is addressed and may contain information that is > privileged and confidential, nor is it, unless specifically stated, > intended to be relied upon by any person or persons other than the > individual or entity named above and no warranties or representations > are made or intended to persons or entities not named above. 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Thank you. > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkl > er.org > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkl > er.org -- Best regards, Charles Thurston mailto:[email protected] Systems Design Manager NICET Certified _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
